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I agree with you on the level that it is a very limited view, but as for the OP states that "Most people who consider themselves programmers are employed effect

I agree with you on the level that it is a very limited view, but as for the OP states that "Most people who consider themselves programmers are employed effectively selling underpants on the internet using LAMP." I was slightly offended when I read this - I'm 'only' a web developer, but I don't believe I'm any more or less useful or talented than anyone who say, programs kernel drivers. I'm sure the people who program kernel drivers would disagree with me, on the other hand. It's a topic which has bugged me for an age now, am I a real programmer? Am I actually making any difference to the world? And the answer to both of those, perhaps, is no, but on the other hand, with the exception of Tim berners-lee, Linus Torvalds and Dennis Ritchie, all of us are pretty much interchangeable. I.E. You could remove us from the team and replace us pretty easily with someone else.

drbawb 14y ago
What bugs me is perhaps even more fundamental: All those "superstar" programmers started somewhere. Whether they were a teenage-hacker prodigy or not is irrelevant, they were young, inexperienced, and foolish programmers at one point. Yet once they age (and gain knowledge, or perhaps more importantly, _practical_ experience) they suddenly forget that their journey had a beginning. When you're on the road, everything feels like the middle. So I think it's important to keep perspective, and realize that (irrespective of age) their journey has just been longer than yours. --- The other thing is: I think a programmer's fundamental job is to make computers useful for people. At the end of the day: we provide meaningful abstractions that allow others to get computable tasks done. I don't think it really matters how you define "get stuff done." To the end user: the computer is a blackbox. The fact that they can buy underwear online is just as amazing as the fact that they can turn around and plug in their digital camera. Thanks to the magic of device drivers; they can then download pictures of themselves in their fancy new underwear. So, no, I don't think a web developer is any less of a programmer. For the same reason I don't look at a heart doctor and think: "he is clearly less of a doctor than the neurosurgeon down the hall." Just my $.02
- acuozzo 14y ago
  > To the end user: the computer is a blackbox. What about programmers writing programs for other programmers; e.g., IDEs and compilers?

drbawb 14y ago

What bugs me is perhaps even more fundamental: All those "superstar" programmers started somewhere. Whether they were a teenage-hacker prodigy or not is irrelevant, they were young, inexperienced, and foolish programmers at one point. Yet once they age (and gain knowledge, or perhaps more importantly, _practical_ experience) they suddenly forget that their journey had a beginning. When you're on the road, everything feels like the middle. So I think it's important to keep perspective, and realize that (irrespective of age) their journey has just been longer than yours. --- The other thing is: I think a programmer's fundamental job is to make computers useful for people. At the end of the day: we provide meaningful abstractions that allow others to get computable tasks done. I don't think it really matters how you define "get stuff done." To the end user: the computer is a blackbox. The fact that they can buy underwear online is just as amazing as the fact that they can turn around and plug in their digital camera. Thanks to the magic of device drivers; they can then download pictures of themselves in their fancy new underwear. So, no, I don't think a web developer is any less of a programmer. For the same reason I don't look at a heart doctor and think: "he is clearly less of a doctor than the neurosurgeon down the hall." Just my $.02

acuozzo 14y ago
> To the end user: the computer is a blackbox. What about programmers writing programs for other programmers; e.g., IDEs and compilers?