6 ms·

From someone outside the US (Canada) and in a country that's been abused by its giant next-door neighbour -- longer than just the current, explicit abuse -- I k

From someone outside the US (Canada) and in a country that's been abused by its giant next-door neighbour -- longer than just the current, explicit abuse -- I kinda hope this recession is deep and hurts badly. We've already seen some huge, positive structural changes to our economy and a down-and-out, bleeding US will have nothing but positive effects for the rest of us. I'd have some sympathy but this is an entirely self-inflicted wound and Americans could collectively use a bit of humility.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
> We've already seen some huge, positive structural changes to our economy None of this is good for working Canadians right now. The shit is about to hit the proverbial fan in this country in the next few months. And as bad as things might get in the US they're likely to be worse here. Maybe in the long run we'll be on a stronger footing but it could also just lead to even more entrenched monopolies in the Canadian economy, and a victimized Canadian consumer.
wqaatwt 1y ago
Unfortunately regardless of whose fault is its hard to imagine Canada will be doing better than the US . It’s just to reliant on US economically. e.g. just like the tariffs which are hurting Canada much more than the US.
justinrubek 1y ago
What a vile response. I hope you feel some of the pain that you wish to dish out. There are a lot of us in the US who don't want this bullshit and haven't wanted it. A lot.
- ehnto 1y ago
  Then I hope they vote next time. I am not as optimistic as the parent comment, about a US recession being of benefit to the rest of the world. I think we're all various degrees of fucked if it all falls apart, though it is probably true that other countries will benefit in the long run.
- Larrikin 1y ago
  Many of our current problems stem from awful people never suffering any consequences for their actions that actively made the US a worse place for other people.
- cmrdporcupine 1y ago
  The "but the blue states" line worked in the first Trump presidency. Canadians aren't buying it now. The last election just made us shake our heads, and the crap that came after, the threats to us about which 90% of Americans treated as either "YEAH!" or "Oh, that's just trolling". Just over the border outside of Buffalo I see red all over. Even the bluest of states like Vermont have areas that went Trump last election. Sorry, it's just bleak to watch and when your nation makes war on our economy, there's no need for us to differentiate "baddies" from "goodies". We have no voice in your elections and we can't march on your streets to protest your broken regime. But you do. Go fix it. So far I'm not impressed by the domestic opposition.
  - b112 1y ago
    It's not just war on our economy. It's an attempt to steal our country from us. To take our homes, our nation away. Repeated '51st state' blather. Threats of using tariffs until we capitulate and join. Talk of re-drawing the border because someone thinks it "looks weird". and stealing our land and water by force. If someone wants to add tariffs to imports, it's silly, dumb, misguided, but well.. the US is free to do that. But try to take our identity away? Our home? Our nation. This will not be put aside for decades When you get stabbed by a random nutjob, it hurts, but whatever. When you get stabbed in the back by a friend, a brother? The hurt and pain is like a nova. It will never be forgiven, never put out of mind.
- arp242 1y ago
  The US spent several months threatening to annex Canada. It's still threatening to annex Greenland AFAIK. Get your house in order before getting all triggered over people being upset about that.
ants_everywhere 1y ago
Who are you imagining will step into the power vacuum if the US collapses economically?
- ehnto 1y ago
  China is by far the most likely candidate, if it navigates its aging demographic issue well.
  - ptero 1y ago
    China has many internal problems and is not looking for the world dominance, at least not in the medium term. It wants to continue building up its economy, not get involved in conflicts on the other side of the world. Rapid expansions lead to societal changes at home and is something China is really keen to avoid today. My 2c.
    - zrobotics 1y ago
      How does that square with belt and road? I would agree they aren't looking for world dominance, but from my POV they certainly are looking to be a more major player internationally. Especially in the '3rd world', they will likely end up with more influence than the US since we dropped USAID.
      - ptero 1y ago
        I see belt and road as orthogonal to the above. This is an initiative focused on a mix of PR and economy. While there are likely many layers of the intent behind it, I think the main one is to establish resource access as well as access to the markets for China exports and enable the stable growth of the Chinese economy. The success of the initiative still remains to be seen: it is definitely not a failure, but many things can derail it, both inside and outside of China. In either case I see very little desire from the China to throw its non-economic might around outside of what they consider to be part of the Greater China territorial area (Taiwan, South China and Philippine seas). My 2c.
  - 1y ago
ptero 1y ago
As a US citizen I wish Canada well. US needs serious competition and IMO the ideas of economic world group hugs, globalization benefiting everyone, etc. are no longer working. They may have been net positive initially, but are not anymore. Unfortunately starting the rebalancing often requires a crisis. I hope the next one will lead to a world with several stronger, independent and competing clusters, not a weaker, beaten up version of the current setup.
toast0 1y ago
At least in 2024, the US was the largest importer of Canadian exports, by a large margin. If the US economy is in recession, it likely means less spending in general and so less spending on Canadian goods which is likely a problem for the Canadian economy. I'm sure there would be some benefits for Canada as well, but in a connected world economy, when one major country suffers, it's negative for most other countries. That said, yeah it'd be nice if we (US) learned a lesson here, but we don't seem to be quick learners.
- b112 1y ago
  May as well hang a comment here, some blathering on a Canuck viewpoint, not directing this really at you toast0. You're not wrong in who imports the most Canadian goods. Or on how we're all interconnected globally. But just for the record, if you take away oil, we import more from the US, than the US from Canada. And our imports from the US are waaaay down. Funny thing, but when the US talks about annexing Canada, or applying tariffs until we "capitulate and join the US", we get a annoyed. Everywhere I go, especially for groceries, each price tag now has a Canadian or provincial flag on it. They didn't before, but they sure do now. And the outcome is obvious. And really, it's buying from Canada or what... Middle East dictatorships? Or of course drilling more in US territory, which is fine, but hardly Canada's fault. And the funny thing is, we sell our oil at a massive discount to the US. Like our copper. And iron. And 100 other things, all typically at a discount compared to world market pricing. A funny thing has already started to happen, in fact the following video is 2 months old. Instead of trading with the US, and the US trading with the world? We're all just trading with each other instead. When this video was made, Canadian exports were up world wide, and down to the US. And overall? Exports were just up. Right now we're feeling some pain from recent tariffs on steel. But we'll just weather it, and bypass the US, like has happened with everything else: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCwQfSbAyeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCwQfSbAyeQ I believe the end result is the rest of the world will just trade with each other, not with the US, resulting in little difference for everyone else. And disaster for the US. Long term of course. The weirdest part of all of this is, the US specifically wanted more integration. Forced us to take on the FTA then NAFTA in the 80s and so on. Told us we'd be screwed if we didn't comply. And every year since, our real world earnings have gone down per capita, as the US absorbs us economically. And then some guy shows up and tries to claim we're taking advantage. Huh?! What? You made us take on free trade, forced us to integrate economically, we were worse for it, but.. we're taking advantage?? We're basically more than happy to use these opportunities to cut financial ties with the US, because they current arrangement wasn't working out well anyhow.
Belopolye 1y ago
"Protectionism for me, but not for thee."

cmrdporcupine 1y ago

> We've already seen some huge, positive structural changes to our economy None of this is good for working Canadians right now. The shit is about to hit the proverbial fan in this country in the next few months. And as bad as things might get in the US they're likely to be worse here. Maybe in the long run we'll be on a stronger footing but it could also just lead to even more entrenched monopolies in the Canadian economy, and a victimized Canadian consumer.

wqaatwt 1y ago

Unfortunately regardless of whose fault is its hard to imagine Canada will be doing better than the US . It’s just to reliant on US economically. e.g. just like the tariffs which are hurting Canada much more than the US.

justinrubek 1y ago

What a vile response. I hope you feel some of the pain that you wish to dish out. There are a lot of us in the US who don't want this bullshit and haven't wanted it. A lot.

ehnto 1y ago
Then I hope they vote next time. I am not as optimistic as the parent comment, about a US recession being of benefit to the rest of the world. I think we're all various degrees of fucked if it all falls apart, though it is probably true that other countries will benefit in the long run.
Larrikin 1y ago
Many of our current problems stem from awful people never suffering any consequences for their actions that actively made the US a worse place for other people.
cmrdporcupine 1y ago
The "but the blue states" line worked in the first Trump presidency. Canadians aren't buying it now. The last election just made us shake our heads, and the crap that came after, the threats to us about which 90% of Americans treated as either "YEAH!" or "Oh, that's just trolling". Just over the border outside of Buffalo I see red all over. Even the bluest of states like Vermont have areas that went Trump last election. Sorry, it's just bleak to watch and when your nation makes war on our economy, there's no need for us to differentiate "baddies" from "goodies". We have no voice in your elections and we can't march on your streets to protest your broken regime. But you do. Go fix it. So far I'm not impressed by the domestic opposition.
- b112 1y ago
  It's not just war on our economy. It's an attempt to steal our country from us. To take our homes, our nation away. Repeated '51st state' blather. Threats of using tariffs until we capitulate and join. Talk of re-drawing the border because someone thinks it "looks weird". and stealing our land and water by force. If someone wants to add tariffs to imports, it's silly, dumb, misguided, but well.. the US is free to do that. But try to take our identity away? Our home? Our nation. This will not be put aside for decades When you get stabbed by a random nutjob, it hurts, but whatever. When you get stabbed in the back by a friend, a brother? The hurt and pain is like a nova. It will never be forgiven, never put out of mind.
arp242 1y ago
The US spent several months threatening to annex Canada. It's still threatening to annex Greenland AFAIK. Get your house in order before getting all triggered over people being upset about that.

ants_everywhere 1y ago

Who are you imagining will step into the power vacuum if the US collapses economically?

ehnto 1y ago
China is by far the most likely candidate, if it navigates its aging demographic issue well.
- ptero 1y ago
  China has many internal problems and is not looking for the world dominance, at least not in the medium term. It wants to continue building up its economy, not get involved in conflicts on the other side of the world. Rapid expansions lead to societal changes at home and is something China is really keen to avoid today. My 2c.
  - zrobotics 1y ago
    How does that square with belt and road? I would agree they aren't looking for world dominance, but from my POV they certainly are looking to be a more major player internationally. Especially in the '3rd world', they will likely end up with more influence than the US since we dropped USAID.
    - ptero 1y ago
      I see belt and road as orthogonal to the above. This is an initiative focused on a mix of PR and economy. While there are likely many layers of the intent behind it, I think the main one is to establish resource access as well as access to the markets for China exports and enable the stable growth of the Chinese economy. The success of the initiative still remains to be seen: it is definitely not a failure, but many things can derail it, both inside and outside of China. In either case I see very little desire from the China to throw its non-economic might around outside of what they consider to be part of the Greater China territorial area (Taiwan, South China and Philippine seas). My 2c.
- 1y ago

ptero 1y ago

As a US citizen I wish Canada well. US needs serious competition and IMO the ideas of economic world group hugs, globalization benefiting everyone, etc. are no longer working. They may have been net positive initially, but are not anymore. Unfortunately starting the rebalancing often requires a crisis. I hope the next one will lead to a world with several stronger, independent and competing clusters, not a weaker, beaten up version of the current setup.

toast0 1y ago

At least in 2024, the US was the largest importer of Canadian exports, by a large margin. If the US economy is in recession, it likely means less spending in general and so less spending on Canadian goods which is likely a problem for the Canadian economy. I'm sure there would be some benefits for Canada as well, but in a connected world economy, when one major country suffers, it's negative for most other countries. That said, yeah it'd be nice if we (US) learned a lesson here, but we don't seem to be quick learners.

b112 1y ago
May as well hang a comment here, some blathering on a Canuck viewpoint, not directing this really at you toast0. You're not wrong in who imports the most Canadian goods. Or on how we're all interconnected globally. But just for the record, if you take away oil, we import more from the US, than the US from Canada. And our imports from the US are waaaay down. Funny thing, but when the US talks about annexing Canada, or applying tariffs until we "capitulate and join the US", we get a annoyed. Everywhere I go, especially for groceries, each price tag now has a Canadian or provincial flag on it. They didn't before, but they sure do now. And the outcome is obvious. And really, it's buying from Canada or what... Middle East dictatorships? Or of course drilling more in US territory, which is fine, but hardly Canada's fault. And the funny thing is, we sell our oil at a massive discount to the US. Like our copper. And iron. And 100 other things, all typically at a discount compared to world market pricing. A funny thing has already started to happen, in fact the following video is 2 months old. Instead of trading with the US, and the US trading with the world? We're all just trading with each other instead. When this video was made, Canadian exports were up world wide, and down to the US. And overall? Exports were just up. Right now we're feeling some pain from recent tariffs on steel. But we'll just weather it, and bypass the US, like has happened with everything else: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCwQfSbAyeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCwQfSbAyeQ I believe the end result is the rest of the world will just trade with each other, not with the US, resulting in little difference for everyone else. And disaster for the US. Long term of course. The weirdest part of all of this is, the US specifically wanted more integration. Forced us to take on the FTA then NAFTA in the 80s and so on. Told us we'd be screwed if we didn't comply. And every year since, our real world earnings have gone down per capita, as the US absorbs us economically. And then some guy shows up and tries to claim we're taking advantage. Huh?! What? You made us take on free trade, forced us to integrate economically, we were worse for it, but.. we're taking advantage?? We're basically more than happy to use these opportunities to cut financial ties with the US, because they current arrangement wasn't working out well anyhow.

Belopolye 1y ago

"Protectionism for me, but not for thee."