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> Get help. This might seem harsh or personal, but I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you, or even a little bit, but at the collective you, at your argume

> Get help. This might seem harsh or personal, but I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you, or even a little bit, but at the collective you, at your argument, and the logical and illogical conclusions that believing as you do can lead you to arrive upon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you What I mean is this: self-help justice just doesn’t work. You will likely not be seen to be a good actor in the moment due to others not knowing what you know, nor can you count on them to share your opinion on proper interventions in exigent circumstances then or after the dust settles. You can be right or wrong, but I care about you. I hope that comes across. I don’t want you to suffer injustice, nor do I want you to intervene in such a way that now we have two or more problems instead of one fewer or none at all. I don’t want you to be dead wrong, or even dead right. I want you to live to fight another day, and I want you to need never raise arms against another, especially for cause. It’s not fair, but that’s life. Discretion is the better part of valor. Self-help justice is the tail wagging the dog. I have been in a position to engage in the very actions you advise or advocate for, arguably for cause, and I had to actively engage in principled inaction instead, and I only narrowly avoided ruin despite my best efforts. I literally have done nothing wrong, and still been found fault with until others could properly adjudicate wrongdoing, and found me concomitantly lacking in culpability. I know whereof I speak. If you find yourself in a position to decide whether you must engage in self-help justice, I will trust your judgement on the matter, but I may also stand in judgement of you all the same after the fact. I myself ought to have asked for help sooner than I did in an unforeseeable interpersonal emergency I was unable to set right despite my best efforts. I’ve been to the brink, came back, and got the tshirt. Ask me how I know. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45013205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45013205

martin-t 1y ago
> I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you I don't buy this. "Get help" is a well-known gaslighting tactic used by abusers to discredit their target. It does not make sense in a "generic" sense. > You will likely not be seen to be a good actor in the moment due to others not knowing what you know, nor can you count on them to share your opinion on proper interventions in exigent circumstances then or after the dust settles. Of course, because the others don't have the same standard of proof, until and unless I also provide it. This is why I talk about provability vs reality. All I am saying is if the state or anybody else gets involved it has to take previous actions into account. --- People seem to get uncomfortable when talking about killing so let's talk about stealing instead. This is the same as the right to steal back. It's very common for police to not investigate theft. It's also common for people to put GPS trackers in their bikes or tracking SW in their electronics, exactly for this case. But sometimes when people steal their property back (again, assuming they have sufficient proof it's the same item, not just the same model), it happens that the original thief then tries using the police against them. This is wrong. The law should match morality, when something is mine, it's still mine even if it's currently in a thief's possession, and I have the right to use my property as I see fit. And of course, it gets more complicated if the thief managed to resell it in the meanwhile and we can discuss how to maximize justice given uncertainly and lack of provability for all parties involved. But that requires not rejecting the idea in the first place based on "it's complicated". > nor do I want you to intervene in such a way that now we have two or more problems This reads as concern trolling. I am well-aware of the potential for confusion of aggressor and victim. it's the hardest part of true justice. Aggressors always have the same tools as victims. That's why I am not saying people should go out and do the morally right thing now (as you say advocating violence), I am instead saying we should figure out better rules for how to resolve the situations given each party's imperfect information and the law should chance to align with morality.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  > > I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you > I don't buy this. "Get help" is a well-known gaslighting tactic used by abusers to discredit their target. It does not make sense in a "generic" sense. Get help in your pursuit of justice, ideally with the help of law enforcement. If not, from a neutral third party. If not still, then from a trusted friend or family member. You can't go it alone, as then it's just your word against theirs if the shit hits the fan, and if you can foresee issues beforehand, you ought to plan to not lose your freedom, which is a distinct possibility when engaging in self-help outside or even in accordance with the justice system. If you don't, and things go sideways, now you have 2+ problems. I mean you as much as anyone who reads this, as my advice is applicable to whoever reads this, and it is not personal to you. However, I think you especially could benefit from taking it to heart. > People seem to get uncomfortable when talking about killing so let's talk about stealing instead. Let's not, because that's moving the goalposts. I'm not uncomfortable talking about killing or death generally. I've seen people die, and I have rendered life-saving aid to avert certain death, both to folks who were innocent, and to folks who have done me harm in anger without cause or forewarning. Ironically, the person who did me no wrong died despite my best efforts, and the one who wronged me lived, perhaps only because I saved their life. I shared a drink with the blameless person, only for them to overindulge after I refused to drink further with them. They laid down in the recovery position in the next room, and were checked on multiple times, but not frequently enough to save them from themselves. They aspirated in their sleep, and even with CPR performed and paramedics arriving within moments, my roommate and I couldn't bring them out of it. The person who did me wrong struck me out of nowhere after drinking a pint of vodka. I shared a room with this person, and I told them to stop, they didn't, and then they tried to kick me out of my own room and started a ground and pound on top of me. I escaped and put them in a sleeper hold because they would not stop actively attacking me. They went limp, and I immediately stopped and checked their pulse, which was strong, and checked their breathing, which was not at all. I performed CPR and they came back around. I had already dialed 911 on my phone, and my finger was hovering over the call button. I was seconds away from getting help, because they did not deserve to die over their own demons. They had seen a different person die suddenly right in front of them in a freak gun discharge incident when being dumb with a gun that they thought wasn't loaded, and the person who attacked me developed alcohol abuse issues as a result. I may have been right to defend myself, but I would have missed out on all of the neutral and positive interactions I had with them afterwards, and I might have had legal issues if I had failed in my efforts to revive them after they stopped breathing, despite being well within my rights to do what I did. I didn't want that. They were my friend, even when their wrong. That's what friends are for, to tell them they're wrong and to save them from themselves. It's not for you to say that I ought to want that for them or for me. I'm true to my own sense of morality, and I expect you are too. I just find our moral sensibilities incompatible. I don't think you know what you're talking about, because you don't speak as if you have been in a situation in which you have to make the kinds of decisions of which you speak. Maybe you have. Either way, it's fine to speak hypothetically, but I am not speaking hypothetically when I say that you don't want to be put in that situation for no (good) reason, and especially not for bad reasons. Please don't take this personally. I am not personally sure why you care so much about this issue, but I think I have nothing more I can add to this exchange, so I wish you well in your endeavors. Hate can't drive out hate, only love can do that. Let us beat swords into ploughshares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares
martin-t 1y ago
Alright, so I read your story and I disagree with you even more now. You had the system used against you and yet you still defend it. The system was specifically used against you by ignoring who initiated and escalated the conflict and by ignoring how other people have wronged you before you supposedly did anything you call wrong but not illegal. See, you did nothing wrong. You were wronged by the people in the house who initiated the conflict by cheating on you, by hiding a felon (assuming his offense was moral, not just legal), by attacking you physically and by refusing you access to your property (if you couldn't agree on temporary access to retrieve it, then a reasonable compromise would be to call the police to mediate the access, not to use against you). You were wronged by the police by not letting you press charges. And you were wronged by the state by setting up an inherently (due to imbalance of power) abusive system of plea deals. And the reason none of them are concerned with harming you is because they know you have no way to fight back without overwhelming violence (the state) being used against you. It's the classic case of "might makes legal" (which I prefer to "might makes right" because the latter conflates legality and morality/justice. The system needs to be changed so that: 1) You always have the right to fight back legally and punish people for harming you - e.g. police should absolutely be punished for doing their job poorly to this level of incompetence. 2) Failing that, you have the moral right to fight back against all three aggressors. Of course, as I said, overwhelming violence will be used against you. That's why people don't do it and that's I am not advising people to do it. I am saying they have the _moral_ right to and I wouldn't consider them doing anything wrong if they did (as we discussed earlier, assuming I had sufficient proof, not just taking their word for it). --- BTW by all 3, I literally mean all 3. People have the right to overthrow governments if those governments are sufficiently abusive. We could discuss where exactly the line lies. But nobody in the "free world" can defend a position that you always have to submit, especially given how many of today's democracies were created by overthrowing a previous (abusive) government. Which is funny, many make it legal to celebrate events like the French revolution, the US war for independence, the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, etc. but at the same time make it illegal to call for their own overthrow or for assassinations of current politicians.

martin-t 1y ago

> I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you I don't buy this. "Get help" is a well-known gaslighting tactic used by abusers to discredit their target. It does not make sense in a "generic" sense. > You will likely not be seen to be a good actor in the moment due to others not knowing what you know, nor can you count on them to share your opinion on proper interventions in exigent circumstances then or after the dust settles. Of course, because the others don't have the same standard of proof, until and unless I also provide it. This is why I talk about provability vs reality. All I am saying is if the state or anybody else gets involved it has to take previous actions into account. --- People seem to get uncomfortable when talking about killing so let's talk about stealing instead. This is the same as the right to steal back. It's very common for police to not investigate theft. It's also common for people to put GPS trackers in their bikes or tracking SW in their electronics, exactly for this case. But sometimes when people steal their property back (again, assuming they have sufficient proof it's the same item, not just the same model), it happens that the original thief then tries using the police against them. This is wrong. The law should match morality, when something is mine, it's still mine even if it's currently in a thief's possession, and I have the right to use my property as I see fit. And of course, it gets more complicated if the thief managed to resell it in the meanwhile and we can discuss how to maximize justice given uncertainly and lack of provability for all parties involved. But that requires not rejecting the idea in the first place based on "it's complicated". > nor do I want you to intervene in such a way that now we have two or more problems This reads as concern trolling. I am well-aware of the potential for confusion of aggressor and victim. it's the hardest part of true justice. Aggressors always have the same tools as victims. That's why I am not saying people should go out and do the morally right thing now (as you say advocating violence), I am instead saying we should figure out better rules for how to resolve the situations given each party's imperfect information and the law should chance to align with morality.

aspenmayer 1y ago
> > I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you > I don't buy this. "Get help" is a well-known gaslighting tactic used by abusers to discredit their target. It does not make sense in a "generic" sense. Get help in your pursuit of justice, ideally with the help of law enforcement. If not, from a neutral third party. If not still, then from a trusted friend or family member. You can't go it alone, as then it's just your word against theirs if the shit hits the fan, and if you can foresee issues beforehand, you ought to plan to not lose your freedom, which is a distinct possibility when engaging in self-help outside or even in accordance with the justice system. If you don't, and things go sideways, now you have 2+ problems. I mean you as much as anyone who reads this, as my advice is applicable to whoever reads this, and it is not personal to you. However, I think you especially could benefit from taking it to heart. > People seem to get uncomfortable when talking about killing so let's talk about stealing instead. Let's not, because that's moving the goalposts. I'm not uncomfortable talking about killing or death generally. I've seen people die, and I have rendered life-saving aid to avert certain death, both to folks who were innocent, and to folks who have done me harm in anger without cause or forewarning. Ironically, the person who did me no wrong died despite my best efforts, and the one who wronged me lived, perhaps only because I saved their life. I shared a drink with the blameless person, only for them to overindulge after I refused to drink further with them. They laid down in the recovery position in the next room, and were checked on multiple times, but not frequently enough to save them from themselves. They aspirated in their sleep, and even with CPR performed and paramedics arriving within moments, my roommate and I couldn't bring them out of it. The person who did me wrong struck me out of nowhere after drinking a pint of vodka. I shared a room with this person, and I told them to stop, they didn't, and then they tried to kick me out of my own room and started a ground and pound on top of me. I escaped and put them in a sleeper hold because they would not stop actively attacking me. They went limp, and I immediately stopped and checked their pulse, which was strong, and checked their breathing, which was not at all. I performed CPR and they came back around. I had already dialed 911 on my phone, and my finger was hovering over the call button. I was seconds away from getting help, because they did not deserve to die over their own demons. They had seen a different person die suddenly right in front of them in a freak gun discharge incident when being dumb with a gun that they thought wasn't loaded, and the person who attacked me developed alcohol abuse issues as a result. I may have been right to defend myself, but I would have missed out on all of the neutral and positive interactions I had with them afterwards, and I might have had legal issues if I had failed in my efforts to revive them after they stopped breathing, despite being well within my rights to do what I did. I didn't want that. They were my friend, even when their wrong. That's what friends are for, to tell them they're wrong and to save them from themselves. It's not for you to say that I ought to want that for them or for me. I'm true to my own sense of morality, and I expect you are too. I just find our moral sensibilities incompatible. I don't think you know what you're talking about, because you don't speak as if you have been in a situation in which you have to make the kinds of decisions of which you speak. Maybe you have. Either way, it's fine to speak hypothetically, but I am not speaking hypothetically when I say that you don't want to be put in that situation for no (good) reason, and especially not for bad reasons. Please don't take this personally. I am not personally sure why you care so much about this issue, but I think I have nothing more I can add to this exchange, so I wish you well in your endeavors. Hate can't drive out hate, only love can do that. Let us beat swords into ploughshares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares

martin-t 1y ago

Alright, so I read your story and I disagree with you even more now. You had the system used against you and yet you still defend it. The system was specifically used against you by ignoring who initiated and escalated the conflict and by ignoring how other people have wronged you before you supposedly did anything you call wrong but not illegal. See, you did nothing wrong. You were wronged by the people in the house who initiated the conflict by cheating on you, by hiding a felon (assuming his offense was moral, not just legal), by attacking you physically and by refusing you access to your property (if you couldn't agree on temporary access to retrieve it, then a reasonable compromise would be to call the police to mediate the access, not to use against you). You were wronged by the police by not letting you press charges. And you were wronged by the state by setting up an inherently (due to imbalance of power) abusive system of plea deals. And the reason none of them are concerned with harming you is because they know you have no way to fight back without overwhelming violence (the state) being used against you. It's the classic case of "might makes legal" (which I prefer to "might makes right" because the latter conflates legality and morality/justice. The system needs to be changed so that: 1) You always have the right to fight back legally and punish people for harming you - e.g. police should absolutely be punished for doing their job poorly to this level of incompetence. 2) Failing that, you have the moral right to fight back against all three aggressors. Of course, as I said, overwhelming violence will be used against you. That's why people don't do it and that's I am not advising people to do it. I am saying they have the _moral_ right to and I wouldn't consider them doing anything wrong if they did (as we discussed earlier, assuming I had sufficient proof, not just taking their word for it). --- BTW by all 3, I literally mean all 3. People have the right to overthrow governments if those governments are sufficiently abusive. We could discuss where exactly the line lies. But nobody in the "free world" can defend a position that you always have to submit, especially given how many of today's democracies were created by overthrowing a previous (abusive) government. Which is funny, many make it legal to celebrate events like the French revolution, the US war for independence, the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, etc. but at the same time make it illegal to call for their own overthrow or for assassinations of current politicians.