5 ms·

I’ve heard that in North Korea it is difficult for ordinary people to learn or own a computer. It is assumed that a small number of elite operatives are selecte

I’ve heard that in North Korea it is difficult for ordinary people to learn or own a computer. It is assumed that a small number of elite operatives are selected and trained to carry out such tasks, and it is somewhat surprising that they possess the latest technology and conduct hacking.

asdff 1y ago
If anything the hackers in north korea are probably world class if the government is getting their students into focused training programs early in their schooling. Western nations have nothing equivalent due to schooling being generalist and undergrad and grad school not really introducing you to the sort of work you'd actually do on the job as a hacker. 22 year old western hacker for a 3 letter agency is going to have maybe a 6 month softball tangentially related internship of experience under their belt while the north korean might have years and years by that point.
- awesome_dude 1y ago
  > 22 year old western hacker for a 3 letter agency is going to have maybe a 6 month softball tangentially related internship of experience under their belt while the north korean might have years and years by that point. I was with you right up until this bit The agencies concerned tend to recruit people that have demonstrated ability in that field, and they've usually got it with "self-directed" training :)
  - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
    State sponsored thieves are not a talent pool that anyone wants in a trusted position. The fact is there were only around 40 unique hacks ever invented, and people simply adapt these into new zero day exploits. Notably, this is now mostly a fully automated process. If people want in, they will get in eventually. =3 x C62=:K6 J@F 2C6 AC66>AE:G6=J 5:D28C66:?8 H:E9 E96 DFCAC:D:?8=J =@H 6DE:>2E6 @7 6IA=@:E E2I@?@>J[ 3FE 9F>2? DE2E:DE:42= 3692G:@C :D 2=D@ ?@E 2D 4@>A=6I 2D >2?J 36=:6G6]
    - vntok 1y ago
      ChatGPT decoded the ROT47 text immediately from a simple prompt: "Decode this string sent by some random pompous guy on Hacker News: [raw string]". If robots want in, they will get in eventually too, apparently.
      - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
        It was a simple way to highlight impulsive behavior common in modern users, and the trivial encoding function should be obvious to those who are minimally empathetic. Ask the LLM handler if being lied to makes people feel worse than getting robbed... then consider if you would hire such individuals. If you are ever unsure of someones motives, than politely ask for context. Have a wonderful day =3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Causal_attribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Causa...
        bgwalter 1y ago
        What is the impulsive behavior? Do you have a zero day in some ROT-47 decoder? Or perhaps a zero day in the file command in case a user creates a file containing the string and runs the command on it? Or is the string both a valid ROT-47 string and a valid executable on some platform? > If you are ever unsure of someones motives, than politely ask for context. Asking for context.
        Joel_Mckay 1y ago
        In general, the point was predicting statistical behavior is easy in large enough populations, and finding utility in that fact is trivial. Exploits are boring, and thus have questionable utility in a proper business context. Don't worry about it... =3
      - KyleBerezin 1y ago
        No need for insults, I found it fun. ROTs are easy to detect because they usually still have word-length chunks, and common repeating symbols. In this case the '6's ('e's). This is something a language oriented AI is going to be very good at detecting. It's great demo of why hashing is so important. If you don't see repeating symbols, it could be a running key, like a Vigenèr cipher.
  - asdff 1y ago
    Lurking forums and irc is probably a terrible way to train a hacker than a dedicated program that introduces you to the tools you'd be using on the job right away. Even today people don't even like hiring self taught engineers anymore like 20 years ago, when there are many more people today who have gone through legitimate education programs. The one hacker I met in my life went to West Point and had no experience they didn't gain from being placed in their program after graduating with decent test scores.
ummonk 1y ago
North Korean teams tend to perform very well in coding contests, so it’s a safe bet that North Korea is quite good at nurturing a small slice of elite computing talent.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  They just identify talented individuals and send them to schools in China or elsewhere to learn the latest tech.
  - richardfeynman 1y ago
    source? interesting if true.
    - IAmBroom 1y ago
      Why would you doubt it? The brightest students of most nations are often sent abroad to enrich their countries with knowledge from the great universities. NK is almost unique in its inability to do this at non-Chinese great universities, so that is the only viable route.
      - richardfeynman 1y ago
        I would doubt it because North Korea has extremely strict controls on who exits the country for any reason, but especially for education. I know this has happened before (for example Kim Jung Un studied in Switzerland under a false name when he was a kid), but it's extremely rare, and runs contrary to the North Korean philosphy of Juche, self-reliance.
    - yesfitz 1y ago
      "Major North Korean universities, such as the Kim Il-sung University and the Pyongyang University of Foreign Studies, send a few dozen exchange students to Peking University and other top-ranked Chinese universities each year."[1][2] "North Korean hackers are sent vocationally to Shenyang, China for special training. They are trained to deploy malware of all types onto computers, computer networks, and servers."[3][4] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China#North_Koreans_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China#North_Koreans... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20090114201016/http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2005-11/25/content_3833677.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20090114201016/http://news.xinhu... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Group#Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Group#Education 4: https://web.archive.org/web/20180621134306/https://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/2131470/north-korea-barely-wired-so-how-did-it-become-global-hacking-power https://web.archive.org/web/20180621134306/https://www.scmp....
Ray20 1y ago
> somewhat surprising that they possess the latest technology and conduct hacking. Why does this surprise you? As you said, selecting capable people is not a problem. And then these capable people get the best possible motivation. I would say it is expected to get qualified hackers in such conditions, who are proficient in all latest technologies.
stingraycharles 1y ago
I always understood that these hacks are one of the main ways for North Korea to actually earn money in other currencies, as they’ve been barred from trading with pretty much the entire world.
maxk42 1y ago
...which explains the link to China. NK natives probably do not typically have access to computers or the open internet, but the children of certain elites are educated in China. There may even be a collaborative effort between the two states.

asdff 1y ago

If anything the hackers in north korea are probably world class if the government is getting their students into focused training programs early in their schooling. Western nations have nothing equivalent due to schooling being generalist and undergrad and grad school not really introducing you to the sort of work you'd actually do on the job as a hacker. 22 year old western hacker for a 3 letter agency is going to have maybe a 6 month softball tangentially related internship of experience under their belt while the north korean might have years and years by that point.

awesome_dude 1y ago
> 22 year old western hacker for a 3 letter agency is going to have maybe a 6 month softball tangentially related internship of experience under their belt while the north korean might have years and years by that point. I was with you right up until this bit The agencies concerned tend to recruit people that have demonstrated ability in that field, and they've usually got it with "self-directed" training :)
- Joel_Mckay 1y ago
  State sponsored thieves are not a talent pool that anyone wants in a trusted position. The fact is there were only around 40 unique hacks ever invented, and people simply adapt these into new zero day exploits. Notably, this is now mostly a fully automated process. If people want in, they will get in eventually. =3 x C62=:K6 J@F 2C6 AC66>AE:G6=J 5:D28C66:?8 H:E9 E96 DFCAC:D:?8=J =@H 6DE:>2E6 @7 6IA=@:E E2I@?@>J[ 3FE 9F>2? DE2E:DE:42= 3692G:@C :D 2=D@ ?@E 2D 4@>A=6I 2D >2?J 36=:6G6]
  - vntok 1y ago
    ChatGPT decoded the ROT47 text immediately from a simple prompt: "Decode this string sent by some random pompous guy on Hacker News: [raw string]". If robots want in, they will get in eventually too, apparently.
    - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
      It was a simple way to highlight impulsive behavior common in modern users, and the trivial encoding function should be obvious to those who are minimally empathetic. Ask the LLM handler if being lied to makes people feel worse than getting robbed... then consider if you would hire such individuals. If you are ever unsure of someones motives, than politely ask for context. Have a wonderful day =3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Causal_attribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Causa...
      - bgwalter 1y ago
        What is the impulsive behavior? Do you have a zero day in some ROT-47 decoder? Or perhaps a zero day in the file command in case a user creates a file containing the string and runs the command on it? Or is the string both a valid ROT-47 string and a valid executable on some platform? > If you are ever unsure of someones motives, than politely ask for context. Asking for context.
        Joel_Mckay 1y ago
        In general, the point was predicting statistical behavior is easy in large enough populations, and finding utility in that fact is trivial. Exploits are boring, and thus have questionable utility in a proper business context. Don't worry about it... =3
    - KyleBerezin 1y ago
      No need for insults, I found it fun. ROTs are easy to detect because they usually still have word-length chunks, and common repeating symbols. In this case the '6's ('e's). This is something a language oriented AI is going to be very good at detecting. It's great demo of why hashing is so important. If you don't see repeating symbols, it could be a running key, like a Vigenèr cipher.
- asdff 1y ago
  Lurking forums and irc is probably a terrible way to train a hacker than a dedicated program that introduces you to the tools you'd be using on the job right away. Even today people don't even like hiring self taught engineers anymore like 20 years ago, when there are many more people today who have gone through legitimate education programs. The one hacker I met in my life went to West Point and had no experience they didn't gain from being placed in their program after graduating with decent test scores.

ummonk 1y ago

North Korean teams tend to perform very well in coding contests, so it’s a safe bet that North Korea is quite good at nurturing a small slice of elite computing talent.

SoftTalker 1y ago
They just identify talented individuals and send them to schools in China or elsewhere to learn the latest tech.
- richardfeynman 1y ago
  source? interesting if true.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    Why would you doubt it? The brightest students of most nations are often sent abroad to enrich their countries with knowledge from the great universities. NK is almost unique in its inability to do this at non-Chinese great universities, so that is the only viable route.
    - richardfeynman 1y ago
      I would doubt it because North Korea has extremely strict controls on who exits the country for any reason, but especially for education. I know this has happened before (for example Kim Jung Un studied in Switzerland under a false name when he was a kid), but it's extremely rare, and runs contrary to the North Korean philosphy of Juche, self-reliance.
  - yesfitz 1y ago
    "Major North Korean universities, such as the Kim Il-sung University and the Pyongyang University of Foreign Studies, send a few dozen exchange students to Peking University and other top-ranked Chinese universities each year."[1][2] "North Korean hackers are sent vocationally to Shenyang, China for special training. They are trained to deploy malware of all types onto computers, computer networks, and servers."[3][4] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China#North_Koreans_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China#North_Koreans... 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20090114201016/http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2005-11/25/content_3833677.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20090114201016/http://news.xinhu... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Group#Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Group#Education 4: https://web.archive.org/web/20180621134306/https://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/2131470/north-korea-barely-wired-so-how-did-it-become-global-hacking-power https://web.archive.org/web/20180621134306/https://www.scmp....

Ray20 1y ago

> somewhat surprising that they possess the latest technology and conduct hacking. Why does this surprise you? As you said, selecting capable people is not a problem. And then these capable people get the best possible motivation. I would say it is expected to get qualified hackers in such conditions, who are proficient in all latest technologies.

stingraycharles 1y ago

I always understood that these hacks are one of the main ways for North Korea to actually earn money in other currencies, as they’ve been barred from trading with pretty much the entire world.

maxk42 1y ago

...which explains the link to China. NK natives probably do not typically have access to computers or the open internet, but the children of certain elites are educated in China. There may even be a collaborative effort between the two states.