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For a long while I was using MIT a lot, these days I have started switching to GPL especially for anything significant. All because of the nonsense and all the

For a long while I was using MIT a lot, these days I have started switching to GPL especially for anything significant. All because of the nonsense and all the rugpulls.

ranger_danger 1y ago
In my experience, the usefulness of any particular license is only as good as your ability to enforce it in court.
- type0 1y ago
  Using a license that contributors trust your project to abide by is far more useful than any potential litigation that may or may not happen.
- palata 1y ago
  It's also a risk for the other side. Big companies wouldn't take the risk to go in court, they'd rather not use your project.
  - ranger_danger 1y ago
    That has not been my experience... instead, they realize that struggling individual developers cannot and do not want to fight for their rights, so they openly abuse them knowing nothing will happen.
    - bigiain 1y ago
      GPL pretty much guarantees Google won't use you code. Although in this post "Do no evil" world that may no longer be true. And even if it is, Google don't need to use your code. They have enough resources to clean-room re-engineer pretty much any useful piece of code ever written - perhaps short of Linux, MacOS, and Windows. If Google decide they need to use your GPL Open Source project, they'll just assign a team to fully document it while meticulously not using any copyrightable text from your project in their version of the documentation, then assign a different team to write software that matches their own internal documentation - most likely in a different language - probably Golang. Or more likely, they'll make sure there are enough subpoena-able internal internal comms to make it look like they did that, then just get some external-jurisdiction non-english-speaking intern to use Gemini to copyright whitewash the Golang rewrite directly from your open source code. (I just sat here for 5 minutes trying to work out how to end this post on a positive note - but I've got nothing...)
      - Philpax 1y ago
        The positive note, I think, is that Google won't use your software and you won't have to deal with Google problems as a result :-)
        bigiain 1y ago
        Thank you! That's what I was looking for.
      - bawolff 1y ago
        Is that a bad thing? I don't write code specificly so google can use it. If they find it useful and are willing to abide by the license, then by all means great, but if they don't want it, that is their business. As far as white room reimplementations go - why would i care about that at all? Its no longer my code at that point. Copyright is not a patent, all that is their right to do. Just like i have the right to do the same thing to them. (How do you think our nice linux computers manage to interact with proprietary protocols?)
      - sokoloff 1y ago
        I've never worked at Google, but I'd be shocked if they won't use GPL code. AGPL, sure, as lots of companies won't touch AGPL code (so, if you don't want companies to use your code, license it under AGPL). But GPL is so commonly used and pretty well understood how to use it productively and safely and still run a profitable company. Avoiding it entirely seems extremely wasteful, at a scale that even Google probably won't be able to choose to. Any Googlers/x-Googlers care to summarize the open-source usage policy?
    - pabs3 1y ago
      Indeed, see for example Vizio (or Tesla) or many other examples. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
      - ranger_danger 1y ago
        > SFC seeks to confirm in the courts that purchasers of devices running Linux and other software with reciprocal licenses like GPLv2 have a legal right to ask for, and receive, the source code for those devices, so they can adapt the software to their needs, and make practical use of those adaptations by being able to install those changes back onto the devices they purchased. Specifically the last part of that sentence, unfortunately I'm not very hopeful that it will happen, since v2 does not have the same anti-tivoization clause that v3 does, and Linus has personally said that he wants people to be able to lock down their products. My own personal experience with SFC, EFF and FSF is also that they will only agree to take on a case for you if they happen to want to do it, and if you sign over all copyright ownership to them, which I think a lot of people are not willing to do.
        pabs3 1y ago
        GPLv2 has the same requirements as GPLv3 around installation of modifications. The GPLv3 also doesn't prevent what TiVo did; breaking the proprietary software when run on modified GPLed software. TiVo didn't prevent installation of modified GPLed software, and didn't think it was legal to do that. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t... https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Safely-Copylefted-Cars-Reexamining-GPLv3-Installation-Information-Requirements-ALS-Bradley-Kuhn-Behan-Webster-1.pdf https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017... Linus doesn't want people to enforce the GPL in general, not just the lockdown case, he has been arguing against that for a long time. IIRC SFC has a contract option to enforce your copyrights without being the owner of them, I've seen that contract on paper at conferences. They also have limited resources, so can't take on every case.
    - BobbyTables2 1y ago
      I don’t think there so much conspiracy. The big companies could just be a huge collection of disconnected small teams of 2nd rate developers who have little understanding of software licensing and are just trying to ship a product. Not an excuse though. Of course, it doesn’t help that annual training focuses on trade compliance and ethics with no mention of licensing. Hell, I’ve never seen a policy on the use of commercial clip art…
- bawolff 1y ago
  I disagree, we remember the cases where companies egregiously breach the license, we don't remember the cases where they just comply. GPL is at least setting your expectations. With MIT can you even call it a rug pull? The entire point is to let companies do that sort of thing.
  - ranger_danger 1y ago
    But how can we be sure that the same "nothing" wouldn't have happened with any other (or no) license in most cases? Did the lock I put on my door actually prevent anyone from breaking in if nobody ever tried? In my mind, regardless of your license, you still have to be able to defend your rights, or you don't really have any.
    - bawolff 1y ago
      If we are going to use this metaphor, its not about putting a lock on the door but having a door at all. You need locks to protect yourself from malicious people, you need a door just to indicate that people shouldn't randomly come in. MIT is like not even having a door. There is no point in buying a top of the end lock if you leave your door open and hang a sign saying free cookies. I would also disagree that hard power is the only possible way to defend one self. Soft power has its place too and can often offer you much more bang for your buck.

For a long while I was using MIT a lot, these days I have started switching to GPL especially for anything significant. All because of the nonsense and all the rugpulls.

ranger_danger 1y ago

In my experience, the usefulness of any particular license is only as good as your ability to enforce it in court.

type0 1y ago
Using a license that contributors trust your project to abide by is far more useful than any potential litigation that may or may not happen.
palata 1y ago
It's also a risk for the other side. Big companies wouldn't take the risk to go in court, they'd rather not use your project.
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  That has not been my experience... instead, they realize that struggling individual developers cannot and do not want to fight for their rights, so they openly abuse them knowing nothing will happen.
  - bigiain 1y ago
    GPL pretty much guarantees Google won't use you code. Although in this post "Do no evil" world that may no longer be true. And even if it is, Google don't need to use your code. They have enough resources to clean-room re-engineer pretty much any useful piece of code ever written - perhaps short of Linux, MacOS, and Windows. If Google decide they need to use your GPL Open Source project, they'll just assign a team to fully document it while meticulously not using any copyrightable text from your project in their version of the documentation, then assign a different team to write software that matches their own internal documentation - most likely in a different language - probably Golang. Or more likely, they'll make sure there are enough subpoena-able internal internal comms to make it look like they did that, then just get some external-jurisdiction non-english-speaking intern to use Gemini to copyright whitewash the Golang rewrite directly from your open source code. (I just sat here for 5 minutes trying to work out how to end this post on a positive note - but I've got nothing...)
    - Philpax 1y ago
      The positive note, I think, is that Google won't use your software and you won't have to deal with Google problems as a result :-)
      - bigiain 1y ago
        Thank you! That's what I was looking for.
    - bawolff 1y ago
      Is that a bad thing? I don't write code specificly so google can use it. If they find it useful and are willing to abide by the license, then by all means great, but if they don't want it, that is their business. As far as white room reimplementations go - why would i care about that at all? Its no longer my code at that point. Copyright is not a patent, all that is their right to do. Just like i have the right to do the same thing to them. (How do you think our nice linux computers manage to interact with proprietary protocols?)
    - sokoloff 1y ago
      I've never worked at Google, but I'd be shocked if they won't use GPL code. AGPL, sure, as lots of companies won't touch AGPL code (so, if you don't want companies to use your code, license it under AGPL). But GPL is so commonly used and pretty well understood how to use it productively and safely and still run a profitable company. Avoiding it entirely seems extremely wasteful, at a scale that even Google probably won't be able to choose to. Any Googlers/x-Googlers care to summarize the open-source usage policy?
  - pabs3 1y ago
    Indeed, see for example Vizio (or Tesla) or many other examples. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
    - ranger_danger 1y ago
      > SFC seeks to confirm in the courts that purchasers of devices running Linux and other software with reciprocal licenses like GPLv2 have a legal right to ask for, and receive, the source code for those devices, so they can adapt the software to their needs, and make practical use of those adaptations by being able to install those changes back onto the devices they purchased. Specifically the last part of that sentence, unfortunately I'm not very hopeful that it will happen, since v2 does not have the same anti-tivoization clause that v3 does, and Linus has personally said that he wants people to be able to lock down their products. My own personal experience with SFC, EFF and FSF is also that they will only agree to take on a case for you if they happen to want to do it, and if you sign over all copyright ownership to them, which I think a lot of people are not willing to do.
      - pabs3 1y ago
        GPLv2 has the same requirements as GPLv3 around installation of modifications. The GPLv3 also doesn't prevent what TiVo did; breaking the proprietary software when run on modified GPLed software. TiVo didn't prevent installation of modified GPLed software, and didn't think it was legal to do that. https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/mar/25/install-gplv2/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-t... https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Safely-Copylefted-Cars-Reexamining-GPLv3-Installation-Information-Requirements-ALS-Bradley-Kuhn-Behan-Webster-1.pdf https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017... Linus doesn't want people to enforce the GPL in general, not just the lockdown case, he has been arguing against that for a long time. IIRC SFC has a contract option to enforce your copyrights without being the owner of them, I've seen that contract on paper at conferences. They also have limited resources, so can't take on every case.
  - BobbyTables2 1y ago
    I don’t think there so much conspiracy. The big companies could just be a huge collection of disconnected small teams of 2nd rate developers who have little understanding of software licensing and are just trying to ship a product. Not an excuse though. Of course, it doesn’t help that annual training focuses on trade compliance and ethics with no mention of licensing. Hell, I’ve never seen a policy on the use of commercial clip art…
bawolff 1y ago
I disagree, we remember the cases where companies egregiously breach the license, we don't remember the cases where they just comply. GPL is at least setting your expectations. With MIT can you even call it a rug pull? The entire point is to let companies do that sort of thing.
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  But how can we be sure that the same "nothing" wouldn't have happened with any other (or no) license in most cases? Did the lock I put on my door actually prevent anyone from breaking in if nobody ever tried? In my mind, regardless of your license, you still have to be able to defend your rights, or you don't really have any.
  - bawolff 1y ago
    If we are going to use this metaphor, its not about putting a lock on the door but having a door at all. You need locks to protect yourself from malicious people, you need a door just to indicate that people shouldn't randomly come in. MIT is like not even having a door. There is no point in buying a top of the end lock if you leave your door open and hang a sign saying free cookies. I would also disagree that hard power is the only possible way to defend one self. Soft power has its place too and can often offer you much more bang for your buck.