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Feels like Musk should step down from the CEO role. The company hasn’t really delivered on its big promises: no real self-driving, Cybertruck turned into a flop

Feels like Musk should step down from the CEO role. The company hasn’t really delivered on its big promises: no real self-driving, Cybertruck turned into a flop, the affordable Tesla never materialized. Model S was revolutionary, but Model 3 is basically a cheaper version of that design, and in the last decade there hasn’t been a comparable breakthrough. Innovation seems stalled. At this point, Tesla looks less like a disruptive startup and more like a large-cap company struggling to find its next act. Musk still runs it like a scrappy startup, but you can’t operate a trillion-dollar business with the same playbook. He’d probably be better off going back to building something new from scratch and letting someone else run Tesla like the large company it already is.

DoesntMatter22 1y ago
They went from no revenue to the 9th most valuable company in the world under him. No vehicle sales to having the best selling vehicles in the world. They are still profitable, have very little debt and a ton of money into the bank. Every company has hits and misses. Bezos started before Musk and still hasn't gotten his rockets into orbit.
- starchild3001 1y ago
  If I had to guess, I’d say the original Tesla founders had a greater influence than Musk. His track record, frankly, is unimpressive. He’s been promising full self-driving “next year” since 2016, yet it’s still nowhere close. Aside from the Model S and X, there hasn’t been a major innovation under his watch. The real groundbreaking work likely came before him. His reign? Far from remarkable. Each year has been a cycle of overpromising (often outright lying) and underdelivering. As for Tesla’s stock? Well, markets can stay irrational far longer than most people can remain solvent.
  - DoesntMatter22 1y ago
    Tarpenning and Eberhard left Tesla in 2008 and 2007 but somehow they had a greater influence? They contributed no money, nearly tanked the company but somehow were more important. "His track record is unimpressive"... I can see why you say that, I mean, took Tesla from almost nothing to a trillion dollar company. Started the most prolific rocket and satellite company in history (but hey, it's only rocket science right?), provides internet to places that it never even had the possibility of getting to, and providing untold millions the chance to get on the internet. Started a company that is giving the paralyzed the ability to use a computer controlling their brain, and is working to restore sight to the blind. Totally unimpressive. There are so many people who have done these things /s
    - cma 1y ago
      > They contributed no money That's contradicted here: > The two co-founders funded the company until early 2004, when Elon Musk led the company's $6.5 million Series A financing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning
      - DoesntMatter22 1y ago
        Doesn't even say any amount of money that they funded. That could be $30 for all we know
        cma 1y ago
        It's public record, on Musk's word, that Eberhard was in the series A too for $75,000: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/12/29/how-much-equity-did-elon-musk-get-from-investing-in-teslas-series-a https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/12/29/how-much-equit... Your claim was > They contributed no money Where did you get this from? Tesla also licensed the design from tZero before the series-A I believe. And Eberhard was sort of keeping tZero afloat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88KHfX_kPIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88KHfX_kPIY
    - singular_atomic 1y ago
      musk glazer detected
      - DaSHacka 1y ago
        Are you going to address any of their points, are is this the best rebuttal you have?
- tzs 1y ago
  > No vehicle sales to having the best selling vehicles in the world They have the best selling model in the world (their Model Y). But their total sales of all models are way behind many other car companies. These car companies sell more cars each year than Tesla (ordered by total sales): Toyota, Volkswagen, Hyundai-Kia, GM, Stellantis, Ford, BYD, Honda, Nissan, Suzuki, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Renault, and Geely. Toyota and Volkswagen each sell more cars in a year than Tesla has sold over its lifetime, and Hyundai-Kia's annual sales are about the same as Tesla's lifetime sales. By revenue rather than units these companies sell more per year: Volkswagen, Toyota, Stallantis, GM, Ford, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda, BYD, and SAIC Motor. (Edit: I accidentally left out Hyundai-Kia)
xpe 1y ago
This is not a heavily researched comment, but it seems to me that the Model 3 is relatively affordable, at least compared to available options at the time. It depends on your point of comparison: there is a lot of competition for sure. The M3 was successful to a good degree, don’t you think? I mean, we should put a number on it so we’re not just comparing feels. The Model Y sells well too, doesn’t at least until the DOGE insanity.
- starchild3001 1y ago
  Here's some heavy research for you -- Model 3 is competing with the likes of BMW, Audi etc. That's not considered the "affordable" tier. It's called luxury. Here's a comparison: https://www.truecar.com/compare/bmw-3-series-vs-tesla-model-3/ https://www.truecar.com/compare/bmw-3-series-vs-tesla-model-...
  - xpe 1y ago
    I will charitably interpret “heavy research” as a joke. It is hard to interpret the smugness above in a positive light. It is unhelpful to you and to everyone here. If you want to compare an electric car against combustion-engine vehicle, go ahead, but that isn’t a key decision point for what we’re talking about. The TrueCar web page table does not account for a $7,500 federal tax credit for EVs. I recognize it ends soon — September 30 — if only to head off a potential zinger comment (which would be irrelevant to the overall point). All in all, it is notable that ~2 minutes asking a modern large language model for various comparisons is more helpful than this conversation with another human (presumably). If we’re going to advocate for the importance of humanity, seems to me like we should start demonstrating that we can at least act like why we deserve it. I view HN primarily as a place to learn and help others, not a place for snarky comments. A better modern comparison showing less expensive EVs would mention the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Equinox or others. The history is interesting and worth digging into. To mention one aspect: the Leaf had a ~7 year head start but the Tesla caught up in sales by ~2018 and became the best-selling EV — even at a higher price point. So this undermines any claim that Tesla wasn’t doing something right from the POV of customer perception. I don’t need to “be right” in this particular comment — I welcome corrections — I’m more interested in error correction and learning.
derefr 1y ago
Daily reminder that Telsa is not — nor was ever intended to be — a car company. Tesla is fundamentally an "energy generation and storage" (battery/supercapacitor) company. Given Tesla's fundamentals (the types of assets they own, the logistics they've built out), the Powerwall and Megapack are closer to Tesla's core product than the cars are. (And they also make a bunch of other battery-ish things that have no consumer names, just MIL-SPEC procurement codes.) Yes, right now car sales make up 78% of Tesla's revenue. But cars have 17% margins. The energy-storage division, currently at 10% of revenue, has more like 30% margins. And the car sales are falling as the battery sales ramp up. The cars were always a B2C bootstrap play for Tesla, to build out the factories it needed to sell grid-scale batteries (and things like military UAV batteries) under large enterprise B2B contracts. Which is why Tesla is pushing the "car narrative" less and less over time, seeming to fade into B2C irrelevancy — all their marketing and sales is gradually pivoting to B2B outreach.
- utyop22 1y ago
  Are you an investor of Tesla by any chance?
  - derefr 1y ago
    Nope. Don't even own a car. Military-industrial-complexes are just my special interest. And apparently Musk's, too. (What do grid-scale batteries, rockets, data-satellite constellations, and tunnel boring machines have in common? They're all products/services that can be — and already are being — sold to multiple allied nations' militaries. AFAICT, this is 90% of the reason Trump can't fully cut ties with the guy.)
- JimDabell 1y ago
  > Telsa is not — nor was ever intended to be — a car company. Tesla is fundamentally an "energy generation and storage" (battery/supercapacitor) company. > The cars were always a B2C bootstrap play for Tesla, to build out the factories it needed to sell grid-scale batteries This seems like revisionist history. They called their company Tesla Motors, not Tesla Energy, after all. This is a blog post from the founder and CEO about their first energy play. It seems clear that their first energy product was an unintended byproduct of the Roadster, they worried about it being a distraction from their core car business, but they decided to go ahead with it because they saw it as a way to strengthen their car business. https://web.archive.org/web/20090814225814/http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=50 https://web.archive.org/web/20090814225814/http://www.teslam...
sidcool 1y ago
Tesla haters tend to just move the goal posts.
- starchild3001 1y ago
  I don't hate Tesla. I've owned two of them, and still have one. I just think severe underperformance and hallucinations are going on with the company. FSD has been a complete lie since the beginning. Any reasonable person who followed the saga (and the name "FSD") can tell you that. It was mobileye in 2015-2016, which worked quite well for what it's, followed by unfilled "FSD next year" promise since then every year. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
  - brandonagr2 1y ago
    A complete lie that drives me to work every morning? I'm not seeing what the lie is

DoesntMatter22 1y ago

They went from no revenue to the 9th most valuable company in the world under him. No vehicle sales to having the best selling vehicles in the world. They are still profitable, have very little debt and a ton of money into the bank. Every company has hits and misses. Bezos started before Musk and still hasn't gotten his rockets into orbit.

starchild3001 1y ago
If I had to guess, I’d say the original Tesla founders had a greater influence than Musk. His track record, frankly, is unimpressive. He’s been promising full self-driving “next year” since 2016, yet it’s still nowhere close. Aside from the Model S and X, there hasn’t been a major innovation under his watch. The real groundbreaking work likely came before him. His reign? Far from remarkable. Each year has been a cycle of overpromising (often outright lying) and underdelivering. As for Tesla’s stock? Well, markets can stay irrational far longer than most people can remain solvent.
- DoesntMatter22 1y ago
  Tarpenning and Eberhard left Tesla in 2008 and 2007 but somehow they had a greater influence? They contributed no money, nearly tanked the company but somehow were more important. "His track record is unimpressive"... I can see why you say that, I mean, took Tesla from almost nothing to a trillion dollar company. Started the most prolific rocket and satellite company in history (but hey, it's only rocket science right?), provides internet to places that it never even had the possibility of getting to, and providing untold millions the chance to get on the internet. Started a company that is giving the paralyzed the ability to use a computer controlling their brain, and is working to restore sight to the blind. Totally unimpressive. There are so many people who have done these things /s
  - cma 1y ago
    > They contributed no money That's contradicted here: > The two co-founders funded the company until early 2004, when Elon Musk led the company's $6.5 million Series A financing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning
    - DoesntMatter22 1y ago
      Doesn't even say any amount of money that they funded. That could be $30 for all we know
      - cma 1y ago
        It's public record, on Musk's word, that Eberhard was in the series A too for $75,000: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/12/29/how-much-equity-did-elon-musk-get-from-investing-in-teslas-series-a https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/12/29/how-much-equit... Your claim was > They contributed no money Where did you get this from? Tesla also licensed the design from tZero before the series-A I believe. And Eberhard was sort of keeping tZero afloat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88KHfX_kPIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88KHfX_kPIY
  - singular_atomic 1y ago
    musk glazer detected
    - DaSHacka 1y ago
      Are you going to address any of their points, are is this the best rebuttal you have?
tzs 1y ago
> No vehicle sales to having the best selling vehicles in the world They have the best selling model in the world (their Model Y). But their total sales of all models are way behind many other car companies. These car companies sell more cars each year than Tesla (ordered by total sales): Toyota, Volkswagen, Hyundai-Kia, GM, Stellantis, Ford, BYD, Honda, Nissan, Suzuki, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Renault, and Geely. Toyota and Volkswagen each sell more cars in a year than Tesla has sold over its lifetime, and Hyundai-Kia's annual sales are about the same as Tesla's lifetime sales. By revenue rather than units these companies sell more per year: Volkswagen, Toyota, Stallantis, GM, Ford, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda, BYD, and SAIC Motor. (Edit: I accidentally left out Hyundai-Kia)

xpe 1y ago

This is not a heavily researched comment, but it seems to me that the Model 3 is relatively affordable, at least compared to available options at the time. It depends on your point of comparison: there is a lot of competition for sure. The M3 was successful to a good degree, don’t you think? I mean, we should put a number on it so we’re not just comparing feels. The Model Y sells well too, doesn’t at least until the DOGE insanity.

starchild3001 1y ago
Here's some heavy research for you -- Model 3 is competing with the likes of BMW, Audi etc. That's not considered the "affordable" tier. It's called luxury. Here's a comparison: https://www.truecar.com/compare/bmw-3-series-vs-tesla-model-3/ https://www.truecar.com/compare/bmw-3-series-vs-tesla-model-...
- xpe 1y ago
  I will charitably interpret “heavy research” as a joke. It is hard to interpret the smugness above in a positive light. It is unhelpful to you and to everyone here. If you want to compare an electric car against combustion-engine vehicle, go ahead, but that isn’t a key decision point for what we’re talking about. The TrueCar web page table does not account for a $7,500 federal tax credit for EVs. I recognize it ends soon — September 30 — if only to head off a potential zinger comment (which would be irrelevant to the overall point). All in all, it is notable that ~2 minutes asking a modern large language model for various comparisons is more helpful than this conversation with another human (presumably). If we’re going to advocate for the importance of humanity, seems to me like we should start demonstrating that we can at least act like why we deserve it. I view HN primarily as a place to learn and help others, not a place for snarky comments. A better modern comparison showing less expensive EVs would mention the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Equinox or others. The history is interesting and worth digging into. To mention one aspect: the Leaf had a ~7 year head start but the Tesla caught up in sales by ~2018 and became the best-selling EV — even at a higher price point. So this undermines any claim that Tesla wasn’t doing something right from the POV of customer perception. I don’t need to “be right” in this particular comment — I welcome corrections — I’m more interested in error correction and learning.

derefr 1y ago

Daily reminder that Telsa is not — nor was ever intended to be — a car company. Tesla is fundamentally an "energy generation and storage" (battery/supercapacitor) company. Given Tesla's fundamentals (the types of assets they own, the logistics they've built out), the Powerwall and Megapack are closer to Tesla's core product than the cars are. (And they also make a bunch of other battery-ish things that have no consumer names, just MIL-SPEC procurement codes.) Yes, right now car sales make up 78% of Tesla's revenue. But cars have 17% margins. The energy-storage division, currently at 10% of revenue, has more like 30% margins. And the car sales are falling as the battery sales ramp up. The cars were always a B2C bootstrap play for Tesla, to build out the factories it needed to sell grid-scale batteries (and things like military UAV batteries) under large enterprise B2B contracts. Which is why Tesla is pushing the "car narrative" less and less over time, seeming to fade into B2C irrelevancy — all their marketing and sales is gradually pivoting to B2B outreach.

utyop22 1y ago
Are you an investor of Tesla by any chance?
- derefr 1y ago
  Nope. Don't even own a car. Military-industrial-complexes are just my special interest. And apparently Musk's, too. (What do grid-scale batteries, rockets, data-satellite constellations, and tunnel boring machines have in common? They're all products/services that can be — and already are being — sold to multiple allied nations' militaries. AFAICT, this is 90% of the reason Trump can't fully cut ties with the guy.)
JimDabell 1y ago
> Telsa is not — nor was ever intended to be — a car company. Tesla is fundamentally an "energy generation and storage" (battery/supercapacitor) company. > The cars were always a B2C bootstrap play for Tesla, to build out the factories it needed to sell grid-scale batteries This seems like revisionist history. They called their company Tesla Motors, not Tesla Energy, after all. This is a blog post from the founder and CEO about their first energy play. It seems clear that their first energy product was an unintended byproduct of the Roadster, they worried about it being a distraction from their core car business, but they decided to go ahead with it because they saw it as a way to strengthen their car business. https://web.archive.org/web/20090814225814/http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=50 https://web.archive.org/web/20090814225814/http://www.teslam...

sidcool 1y ago

Tesla haters tend to just move the goal posts.

starchild3001 1y ago
I don't hate Tesla. I've owned two of them, and still have one. I just think severe underperformance and hallucinations are going on with the company. FSD has been a complete lie since the beginning. Any reasonable person who followed the saga (and the name "FSD") can tell you that. It was mobileye in 2015-2016, which worked quite well for what it's, followed by unfilled "FSD next year" promise since then every year. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
- brandonagr2 1y ago
  A complete lie that drives me to work every morning? I'm not seeing what the lie is