3 ms·

wait until it becomes widely known how much copper is in one of those EV super chargers. Although witnessing a bug zapper effect may deter some thieves.

Kirby64 1y ago
The unfortunate thing (for deterring theft at least) is that the actual DC cabling is going to be unenergized for safety reasons unless you’re actually charging. Copper theft on those charger plugs is already happening.
- jerlam 1y ago
  I'm told that many (if not most) chargers in Europe are Bring Your Own Cable. I don't know if that's for compatibility or for theft reasons, but it makes sense.
  - Kirby64 1y ago
    I’m not aware of any DC fast chargers that do that, even in Europe. It wouldn’t make sense, since the amount of power you have to push through a DCFC setup is so immense that the cabling is quite unwieldy and specialized. Often the cables are liquid cooled.
    - hunter2_ 1y ago
      Indeed, they're talking about L2 AC public chargers in Europe being BYOC. And going back to the idea that cables are de-energized when not charging, this is true for L2 AC also (the EVSE will have a contactor that the car effectively controls).
      - Kirby64 1y ago
        Yup, basically the only chance for you to get zapped by a charger is either ripping the whole thing out so you make contact with the input AC, or cutting the wire while it’s actively charging a car. And even then, chargers have ground fault protection for L2, and L3 chargers have high voltage isolation monitoring. They’re remarkably safe even against blatant tampering.
cyberax 1y ago
It's already widely known. Here in Seattle all the outdoor HVDC chargers are now down, with the cables cut.
- hunter2_ 1y ago
  Would we be able to insulate sufficiently for a new generation of DC fast charging where voltage is so much higher that current is so much lower that the cable isn't thick enough to be worth stealing? Could eliminate active cable cooling, as well. I guess the problem would be stepping it back down inside the car to match the battery voltage, which is an AC endeavor, at which point it might as well just be AC grid power delivered to the car (albeit high/primary voltage, not residential/secondary voltage), and we're back to the car having enormous equipment on board that ought to be stationed, so no.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    AC into the battery? Or did I misunderstand?
    - hunter2_ 1y ago
      I neglected to mention rectifying, but to clarify I meant that the process of stepping down wants to be AC, not that the battery wants AC.
      - privatelypublic 1y ago
        DC fast charging is already 500-800volts- so 125A max for 100kW, only they liquid cool the lines so you're not trying to plug in a big floppy... 4/0awg... anyway, its mostly a water/liquid jacket- not copper.
        formerly_proven 1y ago
        Most DCFC cables are not watercooled. A typical 175 kW / 350 kW (400 V and 800 V, respectively) DCFC cable spec is 4x50 + 1G35 + 3x 2x 1, so around 250 mm² of copper, about 2.5 kg/m. They're usually around 4 m long (exterior to the dispenser), let's say five bucks per kg, so 2.5 * 4 * 5 = 50 bucks each. Most chargers have two cables, so 100 bucks. I'm guessing the methhead bringing them to the scrap fence/yard gets like 15 bucks for having caused around 10k in property damage. Though in many of these cases the cables are not actually stolen. People just cut them off and throw them in the bushes or don't even bother moving them. In those cases the motivation is obviously anti-EV vandalism.
sokka_h2otribe 1y ago
No, it's aluminum wire actually. They are not copper

Kirby64 1y ago

The unfortunate thing (for deterring theft at least) is that the actual DC cabling is going to be unenergized for safety reasons unless you’re actually charging. Copper theft on those charger plugs is already happening.

jerlam 1y ago
I'm told that many (if not most) chargers in Europe are Bring Your Own Cable. I don't know if that's for compatibility or for theft reasons, but it makes sense.
- Kirby64 1y ago
  I’m not aware of any DC fast chargers that do that, even in Europe. It wouldn’t make sense, since the amount of power you have to push through a DCFC setup is so immense that the cabling is quite unwieldy and specialized. Often the cables are liquid cooled.
  - hunter2_ 1y ago
    Indeed, they're talking about L2 AC public chargers in Europe being BYOC. And going back to the idea that cables are de-energized when not charging, this is true for L2 AC also (the EVSE will have a contactor that the car effectively controls).
    - Kirby64 1y ago
      Yup, basically the only chance for you to get zapped by a charger is either ripping the whole thing out so you make contact with the input AC, or cutting the wire while it’s actively charging a car. And even then, chargers have ground fault protection for L2, and L3 chargers have high voltage isolation monitoring. They’re remarkably safe even against blatant tampering.

cyberax 1y ago

It's already widely known. Here in Seattle all the outdoor HVDC chargers are now down, with the cables cut.

hunter2_ 1y ago
Would we be able to insulate sufficiently for a new generation of DC fast charging where voltage is so much higher that current is so much lower that the cable isn't thick enough to be worth stealing? Could eliminate active cable cooling, as well. I guess the problem would be stepping it back down inside the car to match the battery voltage, which is an AC endeavor, at which point it might as well just be AC grid power delivered to the car (albeit high/primary voltage, not residential/secondary voltage), and we're back to the car having enormous equipment on board that ought to be stationed, so no.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  AC into the battery? Or did I misunderstand?
  - hunter2_ 1y ago
    I neglected to mention rectifying, but to clarify I meant that the process of stepping down wants to be AC, not that the battery wants AC.
    - privatelypublic 1y ago
      DC fast charging is already 500-800volts- so 125A max for 100kW, only they liquid cool the lines so you're not trying to plug in a big floppy... 4/0awg... anyway, its mostly a water/liquid jacket- not copper.
      - formerly_proven 1y ago
        Most DCFC cables are not watercooled. A typical 175 kW / 350 kW (400 V and 800 V, respectively) DCFC cable spec is 4x50 + 1G35 + 3x 2x 1, so around 250 mm² of copper, about 2.5 kg/m. They're usually around 4 m long (exterior to the dispenser), let's say five bucks per kg, so 2.5 * 4 * 5 = 50 bucks each. Most chargers have two cables, so 100 bucks. I'm guessing the methhead bringing them to the scrap fence/yard gets like 15 bucks for having caused around 10k in property damage. Though in many of these cases the cables are not actually stolen. People just cut them off and throw them in the bushes or don't even bother moving them. In those cases the motivation is obviously anti-EV vandalism.

sokka_h2otribe 1y ago

No, it's aluminum wire actually. They are not copper