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Well it's easy to reconcile when you don't oversimplify the concerns. > it's the fundamental idea that people coming here is bad Too many people coming here t

Well it's easy to reconcile when you don't oversimplify the concerns. > it's the fundamental idea that people coming here is bad Too many people coming here that don't integrate and don't assimilate is bad. A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Multiculturalism working to the degree people want it to these days is a total fantasy. People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. > We can't even allow things from other countries to come here. We don't want to be reliant on other nations. So we incentivize internal production, and disincentivize importing. You can argue that the way that the administration went about it was ineffective at accomplishing that, and that'd be another conversation. > To build prosperity, we need more production, which means more people. So incentivize the native population to have more kids. Incentivize technological innovation that doesn't require mass importation of foreigners.

hebleb 1y ago
This is all xenophobic nonsense
- seanw444 1y ago
  Excellent counterpoint.
  - nkozyra 1y ago
    If I can shine some light on my specific qualms, it's these: > Too many people coming here that don't integrate and don't assimilate is bad. But ... why? This is stated as a matter of fact without any real qualification. Why is different "bad." We have far too many examples in our very own country of different - sometimes dissonant - cultures in the same space and still enjoying success as a society and a nation. > A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Again ... why not? NYC is our prime example of this working and the city succeeding despite some very, very different cultures side-by-side. There are also monoculture countries that have fallen far behind us to use as counterexamples. > People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. This is my biggest issue. If you work here, you're producing something for this country. What you do with your money is frankly, your business. In either event, you're also spending money on housing, food, etc. You're both producing in this country and contributing to our economy. If you want to send the rest back to Mexico, why is that my business? Why does that hurt me?
    - yesididsaythat 1y ago
      In theory, communities thrive according to established social norms. When someone else comes in and exploits the social norms to the detriment of the pre-existing community members, those pre-existing community members will want the newcomers to go away. The dynamic applies regardless of whether the newcomer is an undocumented immigrant, a documented immigrant, or a citizen; poor, middle-class, or rich; dumb or smart; good or bad. If you believe your community was good already, then the notion of change increases the risk of something bad happening. The ability to reject someone before they come in, or force them to go away, is usually never an option you have control over - except for immigration policy in a democratic republic. If we weaken the ability to enforce immigration laws, then we're losing one of the strongest tools for maintaining a cohesive community. If allowing diversity in your community is so great, then why is the blue city Austin, Texas seeing a simultaneous rise in homelessness and drop in property prices? If allowing immigrants in without any control is so great, then why would rich metropolises like New York and Chicago react so badly to the busses of immigrants sent to them from Texas during the Biden regime? If your political party refuses to acknowledge that there are immigrants who believe their first loyalty is Sharia Law, the Chinese Communist Party, or whatever else, then why would law-abiding U.S. citizens take your position seriously? If your vision of the future presents a better world for non-citizens vs. the citizens who have a right to be here, then why would you expect fascism to loose the next election? Additionally... If lecturing the largest bloc of US citizens about why they're inherently privileged and guilty is so great, then why did the political party pushing this loose the presidency in 2016 and 2020?
mullingitover 1y ago
> A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Multiculturalism working to the degree people want it to these days is a total fantasy. Absolute howler. It's a (pretty white supremacist-coded) fantasy to say that immigrants don't assimilate. They typically assimilate better than native-born citizens! Meanwhile the most economically dominant states are extremely ethnically diverse, and have been for the past century. > People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. Another example of what would be a knee-slapper if it were a joke, but it is actually white supremacist dog whistle. Immigrants are an absolute boon. For example, per the Congressional Budget Office[1]: > CBO estimates that the immigration surge will add $1.2 trillion in federal revenues over the 2024–2034 period. This nativist dreck that has infected the country through algorithmic social media is going to wreck the future of the country, and the sad part is that the declining fortunes it causes will still be wrongfully blamed on immigrants. [1] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60569 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60569
- defen 1y ago
  This preening moralizing is precisely the problem. When you tell people they are "white supremacist-coded" they simply do not care. You are like an evangelical Christian telling me that if I don't accept Jesus I will go to hell. I just...don't care. I'm not mad. If anything I feel bad for you; I look at you and wonder how someone could devote so much of their mental hardware to this. Your statements do not make me feel guilty and like I need to change my ways. I am trying to convey to you that I do not share your moral worldview, and that your moralizing is completely ineffective. If you think that makes me a bad person, and you don't want to associate with me, that's fine. I don't care, in the same way that I would not care if a devoted vegan decided that he could not associate with people who use animal products. Why would I want to associate with someone who thinks I'm a bad person? Trump got a higher percentage of the Black vote than any Republican since Gerald Ford. He nearly won an outright majority of Latino voters. How did a white supremacist candidate manage to do that? False consciousness? Marc Maron: "Progressives have really got to figure out how to deal with this buzzkill problem. You do realize we annoyed the average American into fascism."
  - 1y ago
sb52191 1y ago
> People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. What about the American rich extracting wealth overseas? Vacations, real estate, yachts constructed in foreign countries, investing in companies in other countries, etc. I think you're asserting more money leaves the US economy because an average person comes to the US (legally or illegally) and sends a portion of their paycheck back home, but I'd bet American born citizens spend/send far more money out of the country...
nkozyra 1y ago
> A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Our most prosperous times came in the wake of great immigration waves. I think the expectation is that "assimilation" is: - a one-way street and - immediate Neither is true, of course. German assimilation from the mid 19th century took several generations. Same with Italian assimilation in the late 19th/early 20th century.
foogazi 1y ago
> A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. What are the conflicting demographics ? US is so big and diverse from its founding - it seems to have worked out pretty well
ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
>So incentivize the native population to have more kids. That is an idea. Although we murdered 9/10 of them and relegated the rest to stinking refugee camps (oh, sorry, "reservations") for eight or nine generations. And even today we have a huge problem with murder/kidnapping/disappearance of young women of those groups, which we're apparently unwilling to address. Any other bright ideas?

hebleb 1y ago

This is all xenophobic nonsense

seanw444 1y ago
Excellent counterpoint.
- nkozyra 1y ago
  If I can shine some light on my specific qualms, it's these: > Too many people coming here that don't integrate and don't assimilate is bad. But ... why? This is stated as a matter of fact without any real qualification. Why is different "bad." We have far too many examples in our very own country of different - sometimes dissonant - cultures in the same space and still enjoying success as a society and a nation. > A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Again ... why not? NYC is our prime example of this working and the city succeeding despite some very, very different cultures side-by-side. There are also monoculture countries that have fallen far behind us to use as counterexamples. > People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. This is my biggest issue. If you work here, you're producing something for this country. What you do with your money is frankly, your business. In either event, you're also spending money on housing, food, etc. You're both producing in this country and contributing to our economy. If you want to send the rest back to Mexico, why is that my business? Why does that hurt me?
  - yesididsaythat 1y ago
    In theory, communities thrive according to established social norms. When someone else comes in and exploits the social norms to the detriment of the pre-existing community members, those pre-existing community members will want the newcomers to go away. The dynamic applies regardless of whether the newcomer is an undocumented immigrant, a documented immigrant, or a citizen; poor, middle-class, or rich; dumb or smart; good or bad. If you believe your community was good already, then the notion of change increases the risk of something bad happening. The ability to reject someone before they come in, or force them to go away, is usually never an option you have control over - except for immigration policy in a democratic republic. If we weaken the ability to enforce immigration laws, then we're losing one of the strongest tools for maintaining a cohesive community. If allowing diversity in your community is so great, then why is the blue city Austin, Texas seeing a simultaneous rise in homelessness and drop in property prices? If allowing immigrants in without any control is so great, then why would rich metropolises like New York and Chicago react so badly to the busses of immigrants sent to them from Texas during the Biden regime? If your political party refuses to acknowledge that there are immigrants who believe their first loyalty is Sharia Law, the Chinese Communist Party, or whatever else, then why would law-abiding U.S. citizens take your position seriously? If your vision of the future presents a better world for non-citizens vs. the citizens who have a right to be here, then why would you expect fascism to loose the next election? Additionally... If lecturing the largest bloc of US citizens about why they're inherently privileged and guilty is so great, then why did the political party pushing this loose the presidency in 2016 and 2020?

mullingitover 1y ago

> A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Multiculturalism working to the degree people want it to these days is a total fantasy. Absolute howler. It's a (pretty white supremacist-coded) fantasy to say that immigrants don't assimilate. They typically assimilate better than native-born citizens! Meanwhile the most economically dominant states are extremely ethnically diverse, and have been for the past century. > People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. Another example of what would be a knee-slapper if it were a joke, but it is actually white supremacist dog whistle. Immigrants are an absolute boon. For example, per the Congressional Budget Office[1]: > CBO estimates that the immigration surge will add $1.2 trillion in federal revenues over the 2024–2034 period. This nativist dreck that has infected the country through algorithmic social media is going to wreck the future of the country, and the sad part is that the declining fortunes it causes will still be wrongfully blamed on immigrants. [1] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60569 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60569

defen 1y ago
This preening moralizing is precisely the problem. When you tell people they are "white supremacist-coded" they simply do not care. You are like an evangelical Christian telling me that if I don't accept Jesus I will go to hell. I just...don't care. I'm not mad. If anything I feel bad for you; I look at you and wonder how someone could devote so much of their mental hardware to this. Your statements do not make me feel guilty and like I need to change my ways. I am trying to convey to you that I do not share your moral worldview, and that your moralizing is completely ineffective. If you think that makes me a bad person, and you don't want to associate with me, that's fine. I don't care, in the same way that I would not care if a devoted vegan decided that he could not associate with people who use animal products. Why would I want to associate with someone who thinks I'm a bad person? Trump got a higher percentage of the Black vote than any Republican since Gerald Ford. He nearly won an outright majority of Latino voters. How did a white supremacist candidate manage to do that? False consciousness? Marc Maron: "Progressives have really got to figure out how to deal with this buzzkill problem. You do realize we annoyed the average American into fascism."
- 1y ago

sb52191 1y ago

> People coming here and extracting value from the economy to send home is also a problem. What about the American rich extracting wealth overseas? Vacations, real estate, yachts constructed in foreign countries, investing in companies in other countries, etc. I think you're asserting more money leaves the US economy because an average person comes to the US (legally or illegally) and sends a portion of their paycheck back home, but I'd bet American born citizens spend/send far more money out of the country...

nkozyra 1y ago

> A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. Our most prosperous times came in the wake of great immigration waves. I think the expectation is that "assimilation" is: - a one-way street and - immediate Neither is true, of course. German assimilation from the mid 19th century took several generations. Same with Italian assimilation in the late 19th/early 20th century.

foogazi 1y ago

> A nation cannot thrive with too many conflicting demographics. What are the conflicting demographics ? US is so big and diverse from its founding - it seems to have worked out pretty well

ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago

>So incentivize the native population to have more kids. That is an idea. Although we murdered 9/10 of them and relegated the rest to stinking refugee camps (oh, sorry, "reservations") for eight or nine generations. And even today we have a huge problem with murder/kidnapping/disappearance of young women of those groups, which we're apparently unwilling to address. Any other bright ideas?