3 ms·

I feel like the Pi 4 and 5 have moved into a weird limbo area, where if you want it as a small computer there are better computers that include all the things y

by kej 1y ago

I feel like the Pi 4 and 5 have moved into a weird limbo area, where if you want it as a small computer there are better computers that include all the things you mentioned, and if you want it for integrating with electronics there are probably less powerful but cheaper options that would work just as well.

ploxiln 1y ago
The Pi 3 B+ is still available for $35, it's what I still use on occasion - as an ad-hoc networked sensor, or an LED or switch controller, or an weird eeprom programmer ... Sure I could use an arduino in many cases, but the Pi running linux can be very convenient, with bash or regular python or even small unix C utilities (which I can tweak and re-compile right on the Pi!)
- ThatPlayer 1y ago
  Yeah, the Raspberry Pi 4 is available at $35 too, and I like the less common Pi 3A+. The competitors at that price are only the rk3566 boards The Pi 5 and the RK3588 boards is when I'd get an Intel N100 miniPC instead.
tzs 1y ago
What I'd really like is an RPi4 or RPi5 that has an ATmega328P on board that can be programmed and controlled from the software running on the ARM processor. Basically a built-in Arduino UNO.
- teamonkey 1y ago
  Have you looked at programming the RP1 chip on board the Pi5? It’s not exactly a RP2040 but it has PIO and other similarities.
- ThatPlayer 1y ago
  Not an ATmega328P (and not ARM), but the Radxa X4 has an Intel N100 with a RP2040 microcontroller built-in.
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    I remember someone testing that board (Jeff Geerling, maybe?) and there was significant lag on the GPIO because the MCU is essentially an external device with communication over serial (IIRC), it just happens to be mounted on the motherboard.
    - ThatPlayer 1y ago
      The Raspberry Pi 5 has also done something similar: the CPU no longer controls the GPIO directly, but through a RP1 southbridge. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? Don't see any mention of latency on Jeff's review on it, and I doubt the Radxa X4 is popular enough for any big in-depth review like that. It looks like the RP2040 on the X4 is connected via USB. The RP2040's bootloader mode that enables flashing emulates a mass storage device over USB to transfer firmware, so it would be confusing to not connect it via USB.
      - teamonkey 1y ago
        To clarify, the issue with the X4 is that it essentially is no different than having a Pi Pico attached via USB. This means that your x86 program doesn’t directly control the GPIOs, it must communicate with the RP2040 over USB serial. The RP2040 must be flashed with a firmware that knows how to handle these serial commands. It works, but it’s an extra step and timing may be an issue. On the other hand, a Raspberry Pi Linux program can toggle GPIO pins natively simply by using the official libraries. I mentioned the RP1 in another comment.
- slug 1y ago
  Beaglebone Black with PRU
- arcane23 1y ago
  Just get a hat? They breakout into Arduino UNO style connectors and you can use hats designed for that on top of it.
ShakataGaNai 1y ago
Not even limbo. If you need an ultra low power SBC, Pi is there. But if you want the cheapest option, it ain't. A raspberry pi 5 8gb CanaKit. So pi, fan, microsd, cords, power. Comes in at $160 on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Starter-Kit-PRO/dp/B0CRSNCJ6Y https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Starter-Kit-PRO/dp/... You can get any number of Intel N150 MiniPC's with RAM, SSD and power cord for $140? https://www.amazon.com/GMKtec-mini-pc-computer-n150/dp/B0CH81C4K3 https://www.amazon.com/GMKtec-mini-pc-computer-n150/dp/B0CH8... Maybe less on sale. And an Intel N150 is going to score 2-3x on standard benchmarks what the RPi does. You can find older N100 based mini PC's for even less. The pi still has its place, again, for those ultra low power use cases. But for "I just want a small computer", it's not the option. Mostly because of economies of scale. Everything in the MiniPC's is made at thousands of times more scale than the RPi. Also.... in Chinese factories for significantly less cost to start with.
- arcane23 1y ago
  The way I used my Raspberry Pi boards fits into two categories, either always on providing some network service (with a shield), which usually benefits from very low power draw, either needing SPI/I2C/serial to connect to random hardware. For both of these use cases x86 miniPCs are not adequate. They either lack the GPIO header either they draw way more power than ~3-5W (onboard chipset, RAM etc draw extra power)
- dogleash 1y ago
  For a pi/SBC alternative, I've found used minipcs on ebay sold by the lot can have very cheap per-unit prices. The hardware may be 5+ years old, but that can still be way more than you need.
Mister_Snuggles 1y ago
Honestly, the big thing that the Pi has is the support and mindshare. Compared to many equivalents (e.g., the Banana Pi) you'll find much better documentation and have a much more polished experience with a Raspberry Pi. The only question, for me anyway, is how much value I put on that experience and whether the increased cost is worth it.
- joshuanapoli 1y ago
  Yes, this is it. When I'm experimenting, I'm happy to pay an extra $40 for the name-brand device that has 1000s of blog posts supporting it, since it's probably this community is going to help me be more successful and learn faster. I would reconsider the choice when I have a commercial product that I have some scale of production, where a few bucks off the BOM is important.
JohnBooty 1y ago
Respectfully, not from my angle! From a purely hardware perspective, I think it's always been in that "limbo" for almost every use case anyway. For a hobbyist even in Ye Olden Days (before there were other single board computers) you were always able to pull up Craiglist or walk to the thrift store and buy a $50 PC that vastly outperformed a Pi anyway. Underclock that PC and it could be a fanless power miser too, albeit not quite down to Pi levels. (Pretty sure I remember people clocking 900mhz P3's down to 500mhz fanless, that kind of thing. Still faster than a O.G. RPi...) So the Pi's hardware was really only a revelation if you needed that semi-embeddable form factor, or if you wanted to do something like manage a classroom of cheap low-performance PCs without the nightmare of managing a fleet of heterogeneous junk PCs. It was always all about the objectively awesome ecosystem of support and peripherals, and deciding whether that ecosystem mattered for you and your use case. Sometimes that ecosystem is a massive boon and sometimes it doesn't matter at all.
- JohnBooty 1y ago
  Tangentially, it's always been annoying (and maybe slightly morbidly humorous) how the RPi has always remained a sort of barely-tolerable web browsing machine, even as the hardware's performance has massively increased, because the weight and complexity of web pages has also correspondingly increased.

by kej 1y ago

ploxiln 1y ago

The Pi 3 B+ is still available for $35, it's what I still use on occasion - as an ad-hoc networked sensor, or an LED or switch controller, or an weird eeprom programmer ... Sure I could use an arduino in many cases, but the Pi running linux can be very convenient, with bash or regular python or even small unix C utilities (which I can tweak and re-compile right on the Pi!)

ThatPlayer 1y ago
Yeah, the Raspberry Pi 4 is available at $35 too, and I like the less common Pi 3A+. The competitors at that price are only the rk3566 boards The Pi 5 and the RK3588 boards is when I'd get an Intel N100 miniPC instead.

tzs 1y ago

What I'd really like is an RPi4 or RPi5 that has an ATmega328P on board that can be programmed and controlled from the software running on the ARM processor. Basically a built-in Arduino UNO.

teamonkey 1y ago
Have you looked at programming the RP1 chip on board the Pi5? It’s not exactly a RP2040 but it has PIO and other similarities.
ThatPlayer 1y ago
Not an ATmega328P (and not ARM), but the Radxa X4 has an Intel N100 with a RP2040 microcontroller built-in.
- teamonkey 1y ago
  I remember someone testing that board (Jeff Geerling, maybe?) and there was significant lag on the GPIO because the MCU is essentially an external device with communication over serial (IIRC), it just happens to be mounted on the motherboard.
  - ThatPlayer 1y ago
    The Raspberry Pi 5 has also done something similar: the CPU no longer controls the GPIO directly, but through a RP1 southbridge. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? Don't see any mention of latency on Jeff's review on it, and I doubt the Radxa X4 is popular enough for any big in-depth review like that. It looks like the RP2040 on the X4 is connected via USB. The RP2040's bootloader mode that enables flashing emulates a mass storage device over USB to transfer firmware, so it would be confusing to not connect it via USB.
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      To clarify, the issue with the X4 is that it essentially is no different than having a Pi Pico attached via USB. This means that your x86 program doesn’t directly control the GPIOs, it must communicate with the RP2040 over USB serial. The RP2040 must be flashed with a firmware that knows how to handle these serial commands. It works, but it’s an extra step and timing may be an issue. On the other hand, a Raspberry Pi Linux program can toggle GPIO pins natively simply by using the official libraries. I mentioned the RP1 in another comment.
slug 1y ago
Beaglebone Black with PRU
arcane23 1y ago
Just get a hat? They breakout into Arduino UNO style connectors and you can use hats designed for that on top of it.

ShakataGaNai 1y ago

Not even limbo. If you need an ultra low power SBC, Pi is there. But if you want the cheapest option, it ain't. A raspberry pi 5 8gb CanaKit. So pi, fan, microsd, cords, power. Comes in at $160 on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Starter-Kit-PRO/dp/B0CRSNCJ6Y https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Starter-Kit-PRO/dp/... You can get any number of Intel N150 MiniPC's with RAM, SSD and power cord for $140? https://www.amazon.com/GMKtec-mini-pc-computer-n150/dp/B0CH81C4K3 https://www.amazon.com/GMKtec-mini-pc-computer-n150/dp/B0CH8... Maybe less on sale. And an Intel N150 is going to score 2-3x on standard benchmarks what the RPi does. You can find older N100 based mini PC's for even less. The pi still has its place, again, for those ultra low power use cases. But for "I just want a small computer", it's not the option. Mostly because of economies of scale. Everything in the MiniPC's is made at thousands of times more scale than the RPi. Also.... in Chinese factories for significantly less cost to start with.

arcane23 1y ago
The way I used my Raspberry Pi boards fits into two categories, either always on providing some network service (with a shield), which usually benefits from very low power draw, either needing SPI/I2C/serial to connect to random hardware. For both of these use cases x86 miniPCs are not adequate. They either lack the GPIO header either they draw way more power than ~3-5W (onboard chipset, RAM etc draw extra power)
dogleash 1y ago
For a pi/SBC alternative, I've found used minipcs on ebay sold by the lot can have very cheap per-unit prices. The hardware may be 5+ years old, but that can still be way more than you need.

Mister_Snuggles 1y ago

Honestly, the big thing that the Pi has is the support and mindshare. Compared to many equivalents (e.g., the Banana Pi) you'll find much better documentation and have a much more polished experience with a Raspberry Pi. The only question, for me anyway, is how much value I put on that experience and whether the increased cost is worth it.

joshuanapoli 1y ago
Yes, this is it. When I'm experimenting, I'm happy to pay an extra $40 for the name-brand device that has 1000s of blog posts supporting it, since it's probably this community is going to help me be more successful and learn faster. I would reconsider the choice when I have a commercial product that I have some scale of production, where a few bucks off the BOM is important.

JohnBooty 1y ago

Respectfully, not from my angle! From a purely hardware perspective, I think it's always been in that "limbo" for almost every use case anyway. For a hobbyist even in Ye Olden Days (before there were other single board computers) you were always able to pull up Craiglist or walk to the thrift store and buy a $50 PC that vastly outperformed a Pi anyway. Underclock that PC and it could be a fanless power miser too, albeit not quite down to Pi levels. (Pretty sure I remember people clocking 900mhz P3's down to 500mhz fanless, that kind of thing. Still faster than a O.G. RPi...) So the Pi's hardware was really only a revelation if you needed that semi-embeddable form factor, or if you wanted to do something like manage a classroom of cheap low-performance PCs without the nightmare of managing a fleet of heterogeneous junk PCs. It was always all about the objectively awesome ecosystem of support and peripherals, and deciding whether that ecosystem mattered for you and your use case. Sometimes that ecosystem is a massive boon and sometimes it doesn't matter at all.

JohnBooty 1y ago
Tangentially, it's always been annoying (and maybe slightly morbidly humorous) how the RPi has always remained a sort of barely-tolerable web browsing machine, even as the hardware's performance has massively increased, because the weight and complexity of web pages has also correspondingly increased.