5 ms·

From Wikipedia: > Antoni graduated from St. Charles Borromeo Seminary with a Bachelor of Arts.[3] He then graduated from Northern Illinois University with a Ma

by dakiol 1y ago

From Wikipedia: > Antoni graduated from St. Charles Borromeo Seminary with a Bachelor of Arts.[3] He then graduated from Northern Illinois University with a Master of Arts[3] and later a doctorate in economics in 2020 How can someone get a doctorate in economics when they studied "Bachelor/Master of Arts"?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lenerdenator 1y ago
"Of Arts" just means an art, not necessarily "Art". You can get a Bachelor of Arts in Computer Science or a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science at my alma mater, albeit from different colleges. Maybe that art was the art of economics, which seems to be more subjective than actual painting.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  “of Arts” comes from the Liberal Arts, the seven traditional fields covered in medieval universities, the Bachelor of Arts being the basic degree in medieval universities, the Master of Arts being the subsequent degree which also conferred the qualification to teach the liberal arts, and after those degrees were doctoral degrees in the “higher faculties” of Law, Medicine, and Theology. While no longer using the Trivium and Quadrivium comprising the traditional Liberal Arts as the sum of the programs, the name of the degrees has been retained widely, and used for degrees in almost any field of study, even while some institutions also offer Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees with other styles (particularly “of Science”). There is no consistent meaning or differentiation to the “of Arts” or “of Science” styles, though they may have signify institution-specific differences in curriculum at some institutions.
jjice 1y ago
I was under the impression that your graduate degrees didn't have to be related to undergrad at all, but I know nothing about these corners of higher education.
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  That's correct. If you can convince a doctoral program to take you, you can get a PhD in it.
- Traubenfuchs 1y ago
  I know a big 4 strategy consultant who has a bachelor and master degree in business who, for some reason, could only get a phd position at our local university of agriculture/brewery/bio-technology and wrote a pointless thesis about a sustainability topic he had zero interest in to get his stupid phd title. Now he is earning breath taking amounts of money by churning out power point documents so I guess his path was correct.
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    If they are pointless power point documents about topics he has zero interest in, then it may have been good training...
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  Yeah, one of my friends in college got his BA in Rhetoric & Communication and was accepted directly into a Physics Ph. D. program.
garciansmith 1y ago
His M.A. was in Economics. Not that, as others have pointed out, you need to have a bachelors or M.A. in the same field as your Ph.D.
triceratops 1y ago
It's more concerning he got his PhD only 5 years ago and is somehow considered qualified for this job now.
- xrd 1y ago
  Look, he IS also a veteran. To be specific, a meme war veteran, but it has to count for something.
- 0xffff2 1y ago
  At this point I'm honestly impressed that he has a relevant PHD _at all_.
dragonwriter 1y ago
It’s not unusual for social sciences, including economics, degrees to be styled as “of Arts” (the original form for both Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees); newer forms like (“of Science”), except for specifically professional degrees, are affectations which may or may not denote any substantive difference (some universities have different colleges with different core requirements independent of degree, that offer BS/MS vs BA/MA degrees, others simply offer only one style for any given major despite similar core requirements.) Some universities might only offer one despite having a few programs in fields where it is more common for degrees to have the opposite style; at one time, e.g., this was true of Caltech which only issued BS degrees for undergrad though there were one or two majors with very few undergraduate degrees issued in fields where BA would be more common at other institutions.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
woodson 1y ago
I think the name of the degree (BA/MA etc.) is mostly related to what university or department it is conferred by. For example, if you finish your master studies in Chemistry at the University of Vienna, you get a Master of Arts.
moi2388 1y ago
No clue. The college where he got his bachelor only has theology and philosophy, so he doesn’t even have a bachelors in economics. Also, this is his PhD thesis. It’s mind-boggling to me that this is apparently doctorate-worthy, I personally find this lacking even for a bachelor thesis: https://huskiecommons.lib.niu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7820&context=allgraduate-thesesdissertations https://huskiecommons.lib.niu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...
- ecshafer 1y ago
  To steelman this, it isn't abnormal for people to get a Bachelors in one thing and a masters or phd in another. Typically the school makes them do some pre-requisite courses for a foundation as part of the masters. I know someone for example with an english degree and a masters in data science, who had to take a couple additional statistics and programming courses, and another person with a math undergrad and a masters in electrical engineering that basically had to take circuits, E&M, and electronics (so a good chunk of the EE undergrad) before starting graduate courses.
- throw0101c 1y ago
  Other agree: * https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/1n23ixd/ej_antoni_is_unqualified_to_run_the_bls_his/ https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/1n23ixd/ej_an...
tzs 1y ago
> How can someone get a doctorate in economics when they studied "Bachelor/Master of Arts"? As opposed to Bachelor/Master of Science, I presume? If that's the case it because "<degree> of Arts" and "<degree> of Science" don't actually mean what a majority of people think they do. In the US there is no inherent difference between BA and BS in fields that most people would think of as sciences (hard or social). What degree a given set of coursework earns is entirely up to the school. All of the following exist in the wild: • BS is the only choice. (Caltech, for example. Even English majors--and yes, there is an occasional English major at Caltech--end up with a BS). • BA is the only choice. UC Berkeley is an example in this category for math and physics. • Both are offered, with identical coursework and requirements. You can have whichever you want. Some will even for a small fee give you two diplomas, so you can use whichever seems appropriate for the situation. • Both are offered, from the same department, with different in-major coursework and aims. One may be aimed toward students aiming to go into research, and one toward those aiming to go into teaching, for instance. • Both are offered, from different departments. For example, UC Berkeley's College of Letters and Sciences offers a BA in chemistry, and the College of Chemistry offers a BS in chemistry. Computer science can be taken at Berkeley in the College of Letters and Science for a BA, or in the College of Engineering for a BS. • Both are offered, with the same in-major coursework, but differ in out-of-major requirements. So, the BA and BS would require the exact same science and math courses, but the BA has specific breadth requirements to produce a well rounded education, whereas the BS lets you take pretty much what you want as long as you satisfy the math and science requirements and any general requirements of your school. Note: since this has "--"s and a list, I suppose I should mention that starting at "In the US" it is a copy/paste (with a minor tweak) of something I wrote many years ago when the question of BA vs BS came up, long before LLMs arrived. :-)
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
rdlw 1y ago
His Master of Arts is in economics. His master's thesis was "Fiscal Triumvirate: Examinations of Federal Deficit Spending and Interest Rates, State-Level Taxation and Domestic Migration, and the Irrelevance of State Credit Ratings to Investors". So his background in economics probably got him into an economics PhD program.
- throw0101c 1y ago
  > So his background in economics probably got him into an economics PhD program. And his thesis seems to be the only paper he has ever published (unless you count any contributions to Project 2025?). He has one citation to his name, compared to the previous BLS commissioner: > In reality, Antoni’s “education and vast experience” boils down to one scholarly citation of his Northern Illinois University dissertation on fiscal policy—from the Texas Public Policy Foundation in 2021, during the time that Antoni worked there. McAntarfer’s own research, The Wall Street Journal found, earned 1,327 citations. * https://archive.is/https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/ej-antoni-bls-trump-jobs/ https://archive.is/https://www.thenation.com/article/politic...

by dakiol 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

lenerdenator 1y ago

"Of Arts" just means an art, not necessarily "Art". You can get a Bachelor of Arts in Computer Science or a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science at my alma mater, albeit from different colleges. Maybe that art was the art of economics, which seems to be more subjective than actual painting.

dragonwriter 1y ago
“of Arts” comes from the Liberal Arts, the seven traditional fields covered in medieval universities, the Bachelor of Arts being the basic degree in medieval universities, the Master of Arts being the subsequent degree which also conferred the qualification to teach the liberal arts, and after those degrees were doctoral degrees in the “higher faculties” of Law, Medicine, and Theology. While no longer using the Trivium and Quadrivium comprising the traditional Liberal Arts as the sum of the programs, the name of the degrees has been retained widely, and used for degrees in almost any field of study, even while some institutions also offer Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees with other styles (particularly “of Science”). There is no consistent meaning or differentiation to the “of Arts” or “of Science” styles, though they may have signify institution-specific differences in curriculum at some institutions.

jjice 1y ago

I was under the impression that your graduate degrees didn't have to be related to undergrad at all, but I know nothing about these corners of higher education.

MangoToupe 1y ago
That's correct. If you can convince a doctoral program to take you, you can get a PhD in it.
Traubenfuchs 1y ago
I know a big 4 strategy consultant who has a bachelor and master degree in business who, for some reason, could only get a phd position at our local university of agriculture/brewery/bio-technology and wrote a pointless thesis about a sustainability topic he had zero interest in to get his stupid phd title. Now he is earning breath taking amounts of money by churning out power point documents so I guess his path was correct.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  If they are pointless power point documents about topics he has zero interest in, then it may have been good training...
dragonwriter 1y ago
Yeah, one of my friends in college got his BA in Rhetoric & Communication and was accepted directly into a Physics Ph. D. program.

garciansmith 1y ago

His M.A. was in Economics. Not that, as others have pointed out, you need to have a bachelors or M.A. in the same field as your Ph.D.

triceratops 1y ago

It's more concerning he got his PhD only 5 years ago and is somehow considered qualified for this job now.

xrd 1y ago
Look, he IS also a veteran. To be specific, a meme war veteran, but it has to count for something.
0xffff2 1y ago
At this point I'm honestly impressed that he has a relevant PHD _at all_.

dragonwriter 1y ago

It’s not unusual for social sciences, including economics, degrees to be styled as “of Arts” (the original form for both Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees); newer forms like (“of Science”), except for specifically professional degrees, are affectations which may or may not denote any substantive difference (some universities have different colleges with different core requirements independent of degree, that offer BS/MS vs BA/MA degrees, others simply offer only one style for any given major despite similar core requirements.) Some universities might only offer one despite having a few programs in fields where it is more common for degrees to have the opposite style; at one time, e.g., this was true of Caltech which only issued BS degrees for undergrad though there were one or two majors with very few undergraduate degrees issued in fields where BA would be more common at other institutions.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

woodson 1y ago

I think the name of the degree (BA/MA etc.) is mostly related to what university or department it is conferred by. For example, if you finish your master studies in Chemistry at the University of Vienna, you get a Master of Arts.

moi2388 1y ago

No clue. The college where he got his bachelor only has theology and philosophy, so he doesn’t even have a bachelors in economics. Also, this is his PhD thesis. It’s mind-boggling to me that this is apparently doctorate-worthy, I personally find this lacking even for a bachelor thesis: https://huskiecommons.lib.niu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7820&context=allgraduate-thesesdissertations https://huskiecommons.lib.niu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

ecshafer 1y ago
To steelman this, it isn't abnormal for people to get a Bachelors in one thing and a masters or phd in another. Typically the school makes them do some pre-requisite courses for a foundation as part of the masters. I know someone for example with an english degree and a masters in data science, who had to take a couple additional statistics and programming courses, and another person with a math undergrad and a masters in electrical engineering that basically had to take circuits, E&M, and electronics (so a good chunk of the EE undergrad) before starting graduate courses.
throw0101c 1y ago
Other agree: * https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/1n23ixd/ej_antoni_is_unqualified_to_run_the_bls_his/ https://old.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/1n23ixd/ej_an...

tzs 1y ago

> How can someone get a doctorate in economics when they studied "Bachelor/Master of Arts"? As opposed to Bachelor/Master of Science, I presume? If that's the case it because "<degree> of Arts" and "<degree> of Science" don't actually mean what a majority of people think they do. In the US there is no inherent difference between BA and BS in fields that most people would think of as sciences (hard or social). What degree a given set of coursework earns is entirely up to the school. All of the following exist in the wild: • BS is the only choice. (Caltech, for example. Even English majors--and yes, there is an occasional English major at Caltech--end up with a BS). • BA is the only choice. UC Berkeley is an example in this category for math and physics. • Both are offered, with identical coursework and requirements. You can have whichever you want. Some will even for a small fee give you two diplomas, so you can use whichever seems appropriate for the situation. • Both are offered, from the same department, with different in-major coursework and aims. One may be aimed toward students aiming to go into research, and one toward those aiming to go into teaching, for instance. • Both are offered, from different departments. For example, UC Berkeley's College of Letters and Sciences offers a BA in chemistry, and the College of Chemistry offers a BS in chemistry. Computer science can be taken at Berkeley in the College of Letters and Science for a BA, or in the College of Engineering for a BS. • Both are offered, with the same in-major coursework, but differ in out-of-major requirements. So, the BA and BS would require the exact same science and math courses, but the BA has specific breadth requirements to produce a well rounded education, whereas the BS lets you take pretty much what you want as long as you satisfy the math and science requirements and any general requirements of your school. Note: since this has "--"s and a list, I suppose I should mention that starting at "In the US" it is a copy/paste (with a minor tweak) of something I wrote many years ago when the question of BA vs BS came up, long before LLMs arrived. :-)

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

rdlw 1y ago

His Master of Arts is in economics. His master's thesis was "Fiscal Triumvirate: Examinations of Federal Deficit Spending and Interest Rates, State-Level Taxation and Domestic Migration, and the Irrelevance of State Credit Ratings to Investors". So his background in economics probably got him into an economics PhD program.

throw0101c 1y ago
> So his background in economics probably got him into an economics PhD program. And his thesis seems to be the only paper he has ever published (unless you count any contributions to Project 2025?). He has one citation to his name, compared to the previous BLS commissioner: > In reality, Antoni’s “education and vast experience” boils down to one scholarly citation of his Northern Illinois University dissertation on fiscal policy—from the Texas Public Policy Foundation in 2021, during the time that Antoni worked there. McAntarfer’s own research, The Wall Street Journal found, earned 1,327 citations. * https://archive.is/https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/ej-antoni-bls-trump-jobs/ https://archive.is/https://www.thenation.com/article/politic...