8 ms·

Yeah but what we are all whining here about (apart from folks working on llms and/or holding bigger stocks of such, a non-trivial and a vocal group here) has hi

by jajko 1y ago

Yeah but what we are all whining here about (apart from folks working on llms and/or holding bigger stocks of such, a non-trivial and a vocal group here) has hit many other jobs already in the past. Very often thanks to our own work. It is funny, in worst way possible of course, that even our chairs are not as stable as we thought they are. Even automation can be somehow automated away. Remember all those posts stating how software engineering is harder, more unique, somehow more special than other engineering, or generally types of jobs? Seems like its time for some re-evaluation of that big ego statements... but maybe its just me.

gjsman-1000 1y ago
There’s two kinds of programmers: 0. The people who got into it just as a job 1. The people who thought they could do it as art And #1 is getting thrashed and thrown out the window by the advent of AI coding tools, and the revelation companies didn’t give a darn about their art. Same with AI art tools and real artists. It even begs the question if programming should ever have been viewed as an art form. On that note, programmers collectively have never minded writing code that oppresses other people. Whether with constant distractions in Windows 11, building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman, or automating the livelihoods of millions of “inferior” jobs. That was even a trend, “disrupting” traditional industries (with no regard to what happens to those employed in said traditional industry). Nice to see the shoe just a little on the other foot. For many of you here, keep in mind your big salary, came from disrupting and destroying other people’s salaries. Sleep well tonight and don’t complain when it’s your turn.
- MSFT_Edging 1y ago
  What's sad is engineering is very much an art. Great innovation comes from the artistic view of engineering and creation. The thing is, there's no innovation in the "track everything that breaths and sell the data to advertisers and cops" market. They might get better at the data collection and introspection, but we as a society have gotten nothing but streamlined spyware and mental illness from these markets.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  > building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman Northrop Grumman only builds what Congress asks of them, which is usually boring shit like toilet seats and SLEPs. You can argue that they design unnecessarily deadly weapons, but if they've built it then it is precisely as deadly as required by law. Every time Northrop grows a conscience, BAE wins a contract.
  - rglullis 1y ago
    > If Northrop grows a conscience, Bofors earns a contract. That's a lame "I was just following orders" excuse. Doesn't matter who gets the contract, if you work for a weapons manufacturer or a large corporation that exploits user data you have no moral high ground. Simple as that.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- giardini 1y ago
  gjsman-1000 says "Whether with constant distractions in Windows 11, building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman, or automating the livelihoods of millions of “inferior” jobs." "unnecessarily deadly"? I had no idea that it was possible to measure degrees of dead: she's dead, they're dead, we're all dead, etc. - I thought it was the same "dead" for everyone. Also, interesting but ambiguous sentence structure. Is this an offshoot of LLMs that I've overlooked?
myko 1y ago
Having used agentic ai (Claude Code, Gemini CLI) and other LLM based tools quite a bit for development work I just don't see it replacing developers anytime soon. Sure a lot of my job now is cleaning up code created by these tools but they are not building usable systems without a lot of developer oversight. I think they'll create more software developer roles and specialties.
- rglullis 1y ago
  What you are saying does not contradict the point from your parent. Automation can create "more roles and specialties" while reducing the total number of people in aggregate for greater economic output and further concentration of capital.
  - myko 1y ago
    I was talking about software development roles specifically, LLMs aren't going to reduce them imo - they just aren't good enough, and I don't think they can be
    - rglullis 1y ago
      They are reducing jobs already. Recent grads are having serious trouble to get work right now: https://www.understandingai.org/p/new-evidence-strongly-suggest-ai https://www.understandingai.org/p/new-evidence-strongly-sugg...
      - myko 1y ago
        I don't see any evidence this is about LLMs vs the general state of the economy
        rglullis 1y ago
        If it was the general state of the economy, unemployment would be hitting all groups of developers. TFA I linked to is showing that the reduction in positions for recent grads has fallen down disproportionately compared to everyone else.
MSFT_Edging 1y ago
> Yeah but what we are all whining here about has hit many other jobs already in the past. I'm less talking about automation and more about the underpinnings of the automation and the consequences in greater society. Not just the effects it has on poor ole software engineers. It is quite ironic to see the automation hit engineers, who in the past generally did not care about the consequences of their work, particularly in data spaces. We have all collectively found ourselves in a local minima of optimization, where the most profitable thing we can do is collect as much data on people as possible and continually trade it back and forth between parties who have proven they have no business holding said data.

by jajko 1y ago

gjsman-1000 1y ago

There’s two kinds of programmers: 0. The people who got into it just as a job 1. The people who thought they could do it as art And #1 is getting thrashed and thrown out the window by the advent of AI coding tools, and the revelation companies didn’t give a darn about their art. Same with AI art tools and real artists. It even begs the question if programming should ever have been viewed as an art form. On that note, programmers collectively have never minded writing code that oppresses other people. Whether with constant distractions in Windows 11, building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman, or automating the livelihoods of millions of “inferior” jobs. That was even a trend, “disrupting” traditional industries (with no regard to what happens to those employed in said traditional industry). Nice to see the shoe just a little on the other foot. For many of you here, keep in mind your big salary, came from disrupting and destroying other people’s salaries. Sleep well tonight and don’t complain when it’s your turn.

MSFT_Edging 1y ago
What's sad is engineering is very much an art. Great innovation comes from the artistic view of engineering and creation. The thing is, there's no innovation in the "track everything that breaths and sell the data to advertisers and cops" market. They might get better at the data collection and introspection, but we as a society have gotten nothing but streamlined spyware and mental illness from these markets.
bigyabai 1y ago
> building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman Northrop Grumman only builds what Congress asks of them, which is usually boring shit like toilet seats and SLEPs. You can argue that they design unnecessarily deadly weapons, but if they've built it then it is precisely as deadly as required by law. Every time Northrop grows a conscience, BAE wins a contract.
- rglullis 1y ago
  > If Northrop grows a conscience, Bofors earns a contract. That's a lame "I was just following orders" excuse. Doesn't matter who gets the contract, if you work for a weapons manufacturer or a large corporation that exploits user data you have no moral high ground. Simple as that.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
giardini 1y ago
gjsman-1000 says "Whether with constant distractions in Windows 11, building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman, or automating the livelihoods of millions of “inferior” jobs." "unnecessarily deadly"? I had no idea that it was possible to measure degrees of dead: she's dead, they're dead, we're all dead, etc. - I thought it was the same "dead" for everyone. Also, interesting but ambiguous sentence structure. Is this an offshoot of LLMs that I've overlooked?

myko 1y ago

Having used agentic ai (Claude Code, Gemini CLI) and other LLM based tools quite a bit for development work I just don't see it replacing developers anytime soon. Sure a lot of my job now is cleaning up code created by these tools but they are not building usable systems without a lot of developer oversight. I think they'll create more software developer roles and specialties.

rglullis 1y ago
What you are saying does not contradict the point from your parent. Automation can create "more roles and specialties" while reducing the total number of people in aggregate for greater economic output and further concentration of capital.
- myko 1y ago
  I was talking about software development roles specifically, LLMs aren't going to reduce them imo - they just aren't good enough, and I don't think they can be
  - rglullis 1y ago
    They are reducing jobs already. Recent grads are having serious trouble to get work right now: https://www.understandingai.org/p/new-evidence-strongly-suggest-ai https://www.understandingai.org/p/new-evidence-strongly-sugg...
    - myko 1y ago
      I don't see any evidence this is about LLMs vs the general state of the economy
      - rglullis 1y ago
        If it was the general state of the economy, unemployment would be hitting all groups of developers. TFA I linked to is showing that the reduction in positions for recent grads has fallen down disproportionately compared to everyone else.

MSFT_Edging 1y ago

> Yeah but what we are all whining here about has hit many other jobs already in the past. I'm less talking about automation and more about the underpinnings of the automation and the consequences in greater society. Not just the effects it has on poor ole software engineers. It is quite ironic to see the automation hit engineers, who in the past generally did not care about the consequences of their work, particularly in data spaces. We have all collectively found ourselves in a local minima of optimization, where the most profitable thing we can do is collect as much data on people as possible and continually trade it back and forth between parties who have proven they have no business holding said data.