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I don't see why it would be "kafkaesque" either. In fact I fail to see any connection between those two facts other than that both are decisions to allow or no

I don't see why it would be "kafkaesque" either. In fact I fail to see any connection between those two facts other than that both are decisions to allow or not allow something to happen by OpenAI.

torium 1y ago
If you don't see why this is oppressive, that's really a _you_ problem.
MSFT_Edging 1y ago
It's oppressive and nightmarish because we are at the mercy of large conglomerates tracking every move we make and kicking our livelyhoods out from under ourselves, while also censoring AI to make it more amenable to pro-corporate speech. Imagine if ChatGPT gave "do a luigi" as a solution to walmart tracking your face, gait, device fingerprints, location, and payment details, then offering that data to local police forces for the grand panopticon to use for parallel reconstruction. It would be unimaginable. That's because the only way for someone to be in the position to determine what is censored in the chat window, would be for them to be completely on the side of the data panopticon. There is no world where technology can empower the average user more than those who came in with means.
- jajko 1y ago
  Yeah but what we are all whining here about (apart from folks working on llms and/or holding bigger stocks of such, a non-trivial and a vocal group here) has hit many other jobs already in the past. Very often thanks to our own work. It is funny, in worst way possible of course, that even our chairs are not as stable as we thought they are. Even automation can be somehow automated away. Remember all those posts stating how software engineering is harder, more unique, somehow more special than other engineering, or generally types of jobs? Seems like its time for some re-evaluation of that big ego statements... but maybe its just me.
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    There’s two kinds of programmers: 0. The people who got into it just as a job 1. The people who thought they could do it as art And #1 is getting thrashed and thrown out the window by the advent of AI coding tools, and the revelation companies didn’t give a darn about their art. Same with AI art tools and real artists. It even begs the question if programming should ever have been viewed as an art form. On that note, programmers collectively have never minded writing code that oppresses other people. Whether with constant distractions in Windows 11, building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman, or automating the livelihoods of millions of “inferior” jobs. That was even a trend, “disrupting” traditional industries (with no regard to what happens to those employed in said traditional industry). Nice to see the shoe just a little on the other foot. For many of you here, keep in mind your big salary, came from disrupting and destroying other people’s salaries. Sleep well tonight and don’t complain when it’s your turn.
    - MSFT_Edging 1y ago
      What's sad is engineering is very much an art. Great innovation comes from the artistic view of engineering and creation. The thing is, there's no innovation in the "track everything that breaths and sell the data to advertisers and cops" market. They might get better at the data collection and introspection, but we as a society have gotten nothing but streamlined spyware and mental illness from these markets.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      > building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman Northrop Grumman only builds what Congress asks of them, which is usually boring shit like toilet seats and SLEPs. You can argue that they design unnecessarily deadly weapons, but if they've built it then it is precisely as deadly as required by law. Every time Northrop grows a conscience, BAE wins a contract.
      - rglullis 1y ago
        > If Northrop grows a conscience, Bofors earns a contract. That's a lame "I was just following orders" excuse. Doesn't matter who gets the contract, if you work for a weapons manufacturer or a large corporation that exploits user data you have no moral high ground. Simple as that.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > Imagine if ChatGPT gave "do a luigi" as a solution to walmart tracking your face, gait, device fingerprints, location, and payment details, then offering that data to local police forces for the grand panopticon to use for parallel reconstruction. > It would be unimaginable. By "do a luigi" you're referring to the person who executed a health insurance CEO in cold blood on the street? Are you really suggesting that training LLMs to not suggest committing murder is evil censorship? If LLMs started suggesting literal murder as a solution to problems that people typed in, do you really think that would be a good idea?
  - LunaSea 1y ago
    Didn't OpenAI already suggest to a kid to kill himself and avoid asking for help from the outside some weeks ago?
  - MSFT_Edging 1y ago
    You misread my comment completely. I was saying these tools will never be capable of empowering the average user against the owners who hold all the cards. "do a luigi" was an exaggeration.

I don't see why it would be "kafkaesque" either. In fact I fail to see any connection between those two facts other than that both are decisions to allow or not allow something to happen by OpenAI.

torium 1y ago

If you don't see why this is oppressive, that's really a _you_ problem.

MSFT_Edging 1y ago

It's oppressive and nightmarish because we are at the mercy of large conglomerates tracking every move we make and kicking our livelyhoods out from under ourselves, while also censoring AI to make it more amenable to pro-corporate speech. Imagine if ChatGPT gave "do a luigi" as a solution to walmart tracking your face, gait, device fingerprints, location, and payment details, then offering that data to local police forces for the grand panopticon to use for parallel reconstruction. It would be unimaginable. That's because the only way for someone to be in the position to determine what is censored in the chat window, would be for them to be completely on the side of the data panopticon. There is no world where technology can empower the average user more than those who came in with means.

jajko 1y ago
Yeah but what we are all whining here about (apart from folks working on llms and/or holding bigger stocks of such, a non-trivial and a vocal group here) has hit many other jobs already in the past. Very often thanks to our own work. It is funny, in worst way possible of course, that even our chairs are not as stable as we thought they are. Even automation can be somehow automated away. Remember all those posts stating how software engineering is harder, more unique, somehow more special than other engineering, or generally types of jobs? Seems like its time for some re-evaluation of that big ego statements... but maybe its just me.
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  There’s two kinds of programmers: 0. The people who got into it just as a job 1. The people who thought they could do it as art And #1 is getting thrashed and thrown out the window by the advent of AI coding tools, and the revelation companies didn’t give a darn about their art. Same with AI art tools and real artists. It even begs the question if programming should ever have been viewed as an art form. On that note, programmers collectively have never minded writing code that oppresses other people. Whether with constant distractions in Windows 11, building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman, or automating the livelihoods of millions of “inferior” jobs. That was even a trend, “disrupting” traditional industries (with no regard to what happens to those employed in said traditional industry). Nice to see the shoe just a little on the other foot. For many of you here, keep in mind your big salary, came from disrupting and destroying other people’s salaries. Sleep well tonight and don’t complain when it’s your turn.
  - MSFT_Edging 1y ago
    What's sad is engineering is very much an art. Great innovation comes from the artistic view of engineering and creation. The thing is, there's no innovation in the "track everything that breaths and sell the data to advertisers and cops" market. They might get better at the data collection and introspection, but we as a society have gotten nothing but streamlined spyware and mental illness from these markets.
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    > building unnecessarily deadly weapons at Northrop Grumman Northrop Grumman only builds what Congress asks of them, which is usually boring shit like toilet seats and SLEPs. You can argue that they design unnecessarily deadly weapons, but if they've built it then it is precisely as deadly as required by law. Every time Northrop grows a conscience, BAE wins a contract.
    - rglullis 1y ago
      > If Northrop grows a conscience, Bofors earns a contract. That's a lame "I was just following orders" excuse. Doesn't matter who gets the contract, if you work for a weapons manufacturer or a large corporation that exploits user data you have no moral high ground. Simple as that.
Aurornis 1y ago
> Imagine if ChatGPT gave "do a luigi" as a solution to walmart tracking your face, gait, device fingerprints, location, and payment details, then offering that data to local police forces for the grand panopticon to use for parallel reconstruction. > It would be unimaginable. By "do a luigi" you're referring to the person who executed a health insurance CEO in cold blood on the street? Are you really suggesting that training LLMs to not suggest committing murder is evil censorship? If LLMs started suggesting literal murder as a solution to problems that people typed in, do you really think that would be a good idea?
- LunaSea 1y ago
  Didn't OpenAI already suggest to a kid to kill himself and avoid asking for help from the outside some weeks ago?
- MSFT_Edging 1y ago
  You misread my comment completely. I was saying these tools will never be capable of empowering the average user against the owners who hold all the cards. "do a luigi" was an exaggeration.