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A large company who is buying licenses for tools has to deal with this for many different things. Docker is not unique here. An IT department for a company of

by nickjj 1y ago

A large company who is buying licenses for tools has to deal with this for many different things. Docker is not unique here. An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows and automated ways to keep tabs on who has what and who needs what. They may also be under various compliance requirements that expect due diligence to happen every quarter to make sure everything is legit from a licensing perspective. Even if it's not automated, it's normal for a team to email IT / HR with new hire requirements. Having a list of tools that need licenses in that email is something I've seen at plenty of places. I would say there's lots of other tools where onboarding is more complicated from a license perspective because it might depend on if a developer wants to use that tool and then keeping tabs on if they are still using it. At least with Docker Desktop it's safe to say if you're on macOS you're using it. I guess I'm not on board with this being a major conflict point.

stronglikedan 1y ago
Or just use Podman and don't worry about licenses, since it's just as good but sooo much easier.
- reaperducer 1y ago
  Some day I hope to work for a company small enough that I can "just" use any software I feel like for whatever reasons I want. But I have to feed my family.
  - worik 1y ago
    > I can "just" use any software I feel like for whatever reasons I want. What could possibly go wrong?
    - nullify88 1y ago
      For my day job, installing software / admin access is reserved to those who work in IT / software development. Rest of the business need to go through a vetted software library.
itsdrewmiller 1y ago
You're arguing against a straw man here - no one but you used the term "dealbreaker" or "major" conflict point. It can be true that it is not a dealbreaker but still a downside.
Dennip 1y ago
Not sure on docker desktops specifics but usually large companies have enterprise/business licencing available and specifically do not deal with this, and do not want to manually deal with this, because they can use SSO & dynamically assign licenses to user groups etc.
- nullify88 1y ago
  Or use Microsoft MyAccess to have the users allocate a license themselves.
dec0dedab0de 1y ago
It becomes a pain point when the IT team never heard of docker, all new licenses need to be approved by the legal department, and your manager is afraid to ask for any extra budget. Also, I don't want to have to troubleshoot why the docker daemon isn't running every time I need it
- reaperducer 1y ago
  It becomes a pain point when the IT team never heard of docker Or when your IT department is prohibited from purchasing anything that doesn't come from Microsoft or CDW.
- axlee 1y ago
  >It becomes a pain point when the IT team never heard of docker Where do you work ? Is that even possible in 2025?
  - tracker1 1y ago
    Apparently they work in the past...
  - cyberpunk 1y ago
    'corp IT' in a huge org typically all outsourced MCSEs who are seemingly ignorant of every piece of technology outside of azure. Or so it seems to me whenever I have to deal with them. We ended up with Microsoft defender on our corp Macs even.. :|
  - anakaine 1y ago
    Its absolutely possible. Weve also had them unaware of github, and had them label Amazon S3 as a risk since it specifically wasn't Microsoft. There is no bottom to the barrel, and incompetence and insensitivity can rise quite high in some cases.
  - dec0dedab0de 1y ago
    I work at a cool place now that is well aware of it, but in 2023 I worked at a very large insurance company with over a thousand people in IT. Some of the gatekeepers were not aware of docker. Luckily another team had set up Openshift, but then the approval process for using it was a nightmare.
zbrozek 1y ago
Yeah all of that is a huge pain and fantastic to avoid.
Aurornis 1y ago
> An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows and automated ways to keep tabs on who has what and who needs what. They may also be under various compliance requirements that expect due diligence to happen every quarter to make sure everything is legit from a licensing perspective. Correct, but every additional software package and each additional license adds more to track. Every new software license requires legal to review it. These centralized departments add up all of the license and SaaS costs and it shows up as one big number, which executives start pushing to decrease. When you let everyone get a license for everything they might need, it gets out of control quickly (many startups relearn this lesson in their growth phase) Then they start investigating how often people use software packages and realize most people aren't actually using most software they have seats for. This happens because when software feels 'free' people request it for one-time use for a thing or to try it out and then forget about it, so you have low utilization across the board. So they start making it harder to add new software. They start auditing usage. They may want reports on why software is still needed and who uses it. It all adds up. I understand you don't think it should be this way, but it is at big companies. You're right that that the $24/user per month isn't much, but it's one of dozens of fees that get added, multiplied by every employee in the company, and now they need someone to maintain licenses, get them reviewed, interact with the rep every year, do the negotiation battles, and so on. It adds up fast.
- oooyay 1y ago
  > Correct, but every additional software package and each additional license adds more to track. This is going to differ company to company but since we're narrowing it to large companies I disagree. Usually there's a TPM that tracks license distribution and usage. Most companies provide that kind of information as part of their licensing program (and Docker certainly does.) > Every new software license requires legal to review it. Yes, but this is like 90% of what legal does - contract review. It's also what managers do but more on the negotiation end. Most average software engineers probably don't realize it but a lot of cloud services, even within a managed cloud provider like AWS, require contract and pricing negotiation. > These centralized departments add up all of the license and SaaS costs and it shows up as one big number, which executives start pushing to decrease. When you let everyone get a license for everything they might need, it gets out of control quickly (many startups relearn this lesson in their growth phase) As I said earlier, I can't speak for other companies but at large companies I've worked at this just simply isn't true. There's metrics for when the software isn't being used because the corporation is financially incentivized to shrink those numbers or consolidate on software that achieves similar goals. They're certainly individually tracked fairly far up the chain even if they do appear as a big number somewhere.
reaperducer 1y ago
An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows The business world is full of things that "should" be a certain way, but aren't. For the technology world, double the number. We'd all like to live in some magical imaginary HN "should" world, but none of us do. We all work in companies that are flawed, and sometimes those flaws get in the way of our work. If you've never run into this, buy a lottery ticket.
unethical_ban 1y ago
>An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows I'm in IT consulting. If most companies could even get the basic best practices of the field implemented, I wouldn't have a job.
worik 1y ago
Not just large companies OT because not docker In the realm of artistic software (thinking Alberton Live and Adobe suites) licensing hell is a real thing. In my recent experience it sorts the amateurs from the pros, in favour of amateurs The time spent learning the closed system includes hours and dollars wrestling licenses. Pain++. Not just the unaffordable price, but time that could be spent creating But for an aspiring professional it is the cost of entry. These tools must be mastered (if not paid for, ripping is common) as they have become a key part of the mandated tool chains, to the point of enshittification The amateur is able to just get on with it, and produce what they want when they want with a dizzying array of possible tools
eptcyka 1y ago
A large company has to deal with many different things, some of the things are intrinsic to the business, some are not. When push comes to shove, business will try to relieve itself of the latter so it can focus on the former.
akerl_ 1y ago
Idk what to tell you other than that it is. Large companies do have ways to deal with this: they negotiate flat rates or true-up cadences with vendors. But now you’ve raised the bar way higher than “just use podman”.

by nickjj 1y ago

stronglikedan 1y ago

Or just use Podman and don't worry about licenses, since it's just as good but sooo much easier.

reaperducer 1y ago
Some day I hope to work for a company small enough that I can "just" use any software I feel like for whatever reasons I want. But I have to feed my family.
- worik 1y ago
  > I can "just" use any software I feel like for whatever reasons I want. What could possibly go wrong?
  - nullify88 1y ago
    For my day job, installing software / admin access is reserved to those who work in IT / software development. Rest of the business need to go through a vetted software library.

itsdrewmiller 1y ago

You're arguing against a straw man here - no one but you used the term "dealbreaker" or "major" conflict point. It can be true that it is not a dealbreaker but still a downside.

Dennip 1y ago

Not sure on docker desktops specifics but usually large companies have enterprise/business licencing available and specifically do not deal with this, and do not want to manually deal with this, because they can use SSO & dynamically assign licenses to user groups etc.

nullify88 1y ago
Or use Microsoft MyAccess to have the users allocate a license themselves.

dec0dedab0de 1y ago

It becomes a pain point when the IT team never heard of docker, all new licenses need to be approved by the legal department, and your manager is afraid to ask for any extra budget. Also, I don't want to have to troubleshoot why the docker daemon isn't running every time I need it

reaperducer 1y ago
It becomes a pain point when the IT team never heard of docker Or when your IT department is prohibited from purchasing anything that doesn't come from Microsoft or CDW.
axlee 1y ago
>It becomes a pain point when the IT team never heard of docker Where do you work ? Is that even possible in 2025?
- tracker1 1y ago
  Apparently they work in the past...
- cyberpunk 1y ago
  'corp IT' in a huge org typically all outsourced MCSEs who are seemingly ignorant of every piece of technology outside of azure. Or so it seems to me whenever I have to deal with them. We ended up with Microsoft defender on our corp Macs even.. :|
- anakaine 1y ago
  Its absolutely possible. Weve also had them unaware of github, and had them label Amazon S3 as a risk since it specifically wasn't Microsoft. There is no bottom to the barrel, and incompetence and insensitivity can rise quite high in some cases.
- dec0dedab0de 1y ago
  I work at a cool place now that is well aware of it, but in 2023 I worked at a very large insurance company with over a thousand people in IT. Some of the gatekeepers were not aware of docker. Luckily another team had set up Openshift, but then the approval process for using it was a nightmare.

zbrozek 1y ago

Yeah all of that is a huge pain and fantastic to avoid.

Aurornis 1y ago

> An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows and automated ways to keep tabs on who has what and who needs what. They may also be under various compliance requirements that expect due diligence to happen every quarter to make sure everything is legit from a licensing perspective. Correct, but every additional software package and each additional license adds more to track. Every new software license requires legal to review it. These centralized departments add up all of the license and SaaS costs and it shows up as one big number, which executives start pushing to decrease. When you let everyone get a license for everything they might need, it gets out of control quickly (many startups relearn this lesson in their growth phase) Then they start investigating how often people use software packages and realize most people aren't actually using most software they have seats for. This happens because when software feels 'free' people request it for one-time use for a thing or to try it out and then forget about it, so you have low utilization across the board. So they start making it harder to add new software. They start auditing usage. They may want reports on why software is still needed and who uses it. It all adds up. I understand you don't think it should be this way, but it is at big companies. You're right that that the $24/user per month isn't much, but it's one of dozens of fees that get added, multiplied by every employee in the company, and now they need someone to maintain licenses, get them reviewed, interact with the rep every year, do the negotiation battles, and so on. It adds up fast.

oooyay 1y ago
> Correct, but every additional software package and each additional license adds more to track. This is going to differ company to company but since we're narrowing it to large companies I disagree. Usually there's a TPM that tracks license distribution and usage. Most companies provide that kind of information as part of their licensing program (and Docker certainly does.) > Every new software license requires legal to review it. Yes, but this is like 90% of what legal does - contract review. It's also what managers do but more on the negotiation end. Most average software engineers probably don't realize it but a lot of cloud services, even within a managed cloud provider like AWS, require contract and pricing negotiation. > These centralized departments add up all of the license and SaaS costs and it shows up as one big number, which executives start pushing to decrease. When you let everyone get a license for everything they might need, it gets out of control quickly (many startups relearn this lesson in their growth phase) As I said earlier, I can't speak for other companies but at large companies I've worked at this just simply isn't true. There's metrics for when the software isn't being used because the corporation is financially incentivized to shrink those numbers or consolidate on software that achieves similar goals. They're certainly individually tracked fairly far up the chain even if they do appear as a big number somewhere.

reaperducer 1y ago

An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows The business world is full of things that "should" be a certain way, but aren't. For the technology world, double the number. We'd all like to live in some magical imaginary HN "should" world, but none of us do. We all work in companies that are flawed, and sometimes those flaws get in the way of our work. If you've never run into this, buy a lottery ticket.

unethical_ban 1y ago

>An IT department for a company of that size should have ironed out workflows I'm in IT consulting. If most companies could even get the basic best practices of the field implemented, I wouldn't have a job.

worik 1y ago

Not just large companies OT because not docker In the realm of artistic software (thinking Alberton Live and Adobe suites) licensing hell is a real thing. In my recent experience it sorts the amateurs from the pros, in favour of amateurs The time spent learning the closed system includes hours and dollars wrestling licenses. Pain++. Not just the unaffordable price, but time that could be spent creating But for an aspiring professional it is the cost of entry. These tools must be mastered (if not paid for, ripping is common) as they have become a key part of the mandated tool chains, to the point of enshittification The amateur is able to just get on with it, and produce what they want when they want with a dizzying array of possible tools

eptcyka 1y ago

A large company has to deal with many different things, some of the things are intrinsic to the business, some are not. When push comes to shove, business will try to relieve itself of the latter so it can focus on the former.

akerl_ 1y ago

Idk what to tell you other than that it is. Large companies do have ways to deal with this: they negotiate flat rates or true-up cadences with vendors. But now you’ve raised the bar way higher than “just use podman”.