9 ms·

Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

92 points by techdar42 1y ago

FugeDaws 1y ago
Even shops with security guards dont work in the UK at the moment. It's a shame this could never be a thing here.
- n4r9 1y ago
  It's tempting to see security guards as a basic response to criminal behaviour. But I wonder if the causality is more complex than that. I can easily imagine growing up under different circumstances to view society as a case of "me" vs "them", and I'd be more inclined to lift from shops run by people who clearly see me as enough of a low-life that they'd pay some thugs to man-handle me out.
  - lesostep 1y ago
    I live in a city where self-checkout was implemented for bus rides. You still had a chance for a random bus inspection, but generally you can just walk into the bus and not pay anything, then walk out. It was so strange at first, to see everyone paying when there was no authority demanding a payment. Knowing that government trusts people around me to behave like good citizens, and knowing how many people actually follow the rules, definitely helped me to feel safer in the city. 15 years ago you had to put your wallet in the inner pocket because bags and outer pockets routinely got slashed. Now I can leave my bag on a bench. This difference got erased only when economy became more stable, and employment went up. But I didn't know that I could leave my bag on a bench before I saw with my own eyes that almost everyone tries to be a good citizen. Even if there is no punishment and a small reward for behaving badly
    - hilbert42 1y ago
      "15 years ago you had to put your wallet in the inner pocket because bags and outer pockets routinely got slashed." It's decades since I backpacked around Europe on trains and such, and back then slashing pockets and bags was rife. I never traveled anywhere unless I was wearing a money belt strapped to my waist—it held my passport, traveler's checks, large denomination notes and credit cards. I kept my wallet (with only a small amount of cash) in my front jeans pockets—I reckoned that down there I'd notice any slashing pretty quickly. Pants with side pockets were a no-no because they were too easy to pickpocket. I recall one particularly bad incident in Italy of being surrounded by organised mobs of kids who'd act in ways to distract one's attention whilst others tried to pickpocket one's valuables. I came out unscathed because I was wary from the start. Later I was living and working in Europe and it was very obvious to me that this sort of crime is much more prevalent in areas where people are unemployed or where there is a great disparity between rich and poor. I've no doubt the solution to such crime is having a society where the distribution of wealth is more equitable. Re that point and yours about self-checkout for bus rides. That system was implemented a few years ago where I am. I've made the interesting observation that those who travel outside normal to-and-from work hours—say late morning and early afternoon—are the ones most likely to not swipe their travel card on the payment terminal. When I've traveled at those times I'm surprised at the numbers who do not pay. This is in stark contrast to those who are traveling to and from work, at those hours just about everyone pays. Again, this, no doubt, is an equity/financial issue. Those traveling in the 'off hours' are more likely to be unemployed and or financially hard up.
- smusamashah 1y ago
  As a counter point, when I came to UK, it was super weird to see self checkout machines. Where I am from (Pakistan), I can't imagine anything like that. Although watched a video recently where in a rural area a guy left a cart of fruits on the side of road for people to buy the fruits and pay by themselves, at the end of the day cash was just little bit less than total amount. These machines in UK felt like I was being trusted to pick items myself, and pay myself and I shouldn't break that trust. Ironically I don't see these self checkout machines in Indian/Turkish/Kurdish etc super stores. In-fact, those stores trust there customers even less, they would ask you to leave your bags/trolleys at the door.
  - vidarh 1y ago
    You're on multiple cameras for most of the self-checkouts in the UK, with at least some both capturing your face and an overhead view that will trigger a "are you sure you scanned this" complete with replay of what looked to the system of you potentially failing to scan an item before putting it on the scales on the other end if it looks like you move something past the scanner without the scanner triggering. The system will also typically signal for an attendant if you after a short amount of time ensures the weight on the receiving end matches the expected weight of the items scanned so far. There's not all that much trust involved in it, and I think just being aware of the cameras will make most people who might be tempted think twice. Of course it's possible to steal still, but it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs the shrinkage to add up to a lower cost than having more people at the tills.
    - swah 1y ago
      I think OP was afraid of making a mistake and stealing by accident. I also don't like to use those systems if I have many hard to pack items. But at some point I guess you just remove humans completely.
  - guappa 1y ago
    They just save more money not hiring the cashier.
Towaway69 1y ago
(2021)
hilbert42 1y ago
That's wonderful, but it's not a big surprise for me. When in Tokyo I encountered vending machines on a public street (the Ginza) that dispensed bottles of whiskey—Suntory if I recall—that operated 24 hours a day. If you wanted a drink at 3AM you could get it. Where I am that vending machine would be vandalized overnight and the owner of such an appliance shop would be broke and out of business the next day. Shame really. Edit: A Westerner but longtime resident of Japan told me when I was working there of a hotel robbery where an American tourist had valuables and jewelry worth a substantial sum taken from her hotel room. The robbery was big enough to make the newspapers which led to the return of the jewelry. The thief after seeing the news story returned them with a message to the effect "Sorry, I wouldn't have stolen them if I'd known you were a visiting tourist". Perhaps the story is apocryphal but it and other stories such as if you lose your wallet there's good chance it'll be returned complete with cash—is testament to the honesty of Japanese people.
- rjh29 1y ago
  Those vending machines are supposed to check ID but I've never seen one do (I think cigarette machines do). They just turn off at night and apparently that's enough to stop children from using them.
  - hilbert42 1y ago
    It's quite some time since I've been there but I can't remember an ID system being in place. I didn't have to produce an ID and usually I selected non-alcoholic drinks. However, that was before the proliferation of smartphones, so back then it is likely there was no ID checking. As a nonsmoker, I can't speak about cigarette machines, likely there was no ID on them too. Nowadays, with smartphones etc. checking IDs is comparatively easy but I can't think how it would have been done back then.
    - rjh29 1y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taspo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taspo
ballenf 1y ago
I'm blown away by a fridge costing <$100, used or not. Did I misunderstand the prices?
- gregjw 1y ago
  No, you didn't. Says 10,000 yen, so about 70USD at the moment.
- vidarh 1y ago
  A quick search shows I can get fridges used for less than that in London, though mostly small ones. I guess to a lot of people, when they replace goods like that, the hassle of selling it outweighs the perceived return
- yourusername 1y ago
  I can buy used fridges all day long for €50. I've gotten fridges for free that were still good for years after that. No one wants used white goods. Fridges, washing machines and dishwashers you can pick up below $100 easily.
whatsupdog 1y ago
[flagged]
NaOH 1y ago
Sorta related: Honesty Boxes in Scotland (2024) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44824684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44824684 - Aug 2025 (59 comments)
yorwba 1y ago
What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honeypot for all the less-trustworthy individuals that exist in any society. Maybe the highest trust here is in the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft.
- bapak 1y ago
  > the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft. That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)
  - madaxe_again 1y ago
    Or just the insurers paying up because the police provided a crime number. This is how it works in the U.K. - everyone has cctv, not because it prevents theft or allows the police to investigate, but rather because it allows you insurance coverage for any losses.
    - Anonbrit 1y ago
      If insurance became expensive enough (and logically the price must continue to rise as claims increase) then there will be a financial advantage for companies to design their shops not to need such insurance
  - socalgal2 1y ago
    I wonder what does it take to get a society to have low criminality. IIUC Japan wasn't always this way. Could other societies become high trust? Singapore is. It wasn't always
w15v 1y ago
[dead]
CorbenDallas 1y ago
in some countries honour is to steal from "rich", so not universal :)
RataNova 1y ago
This is one of those "only in Japan" stories that somehow manages to be both heartwarming and surreal
bob1029 1y ago
You still see little islands of high trust in the US. I walked out of an HEB the other day and there were several pickup trucks idling in the parking lot with nobody inside of them. You could open the door and drive off with zero effort if you could find the insanity to do so. I often dont bother to lock my doors at home. The Walmart here doesn't hassle you upon exiting. The local community feels incredibly safe. Drive 20 miles south and you'll find a totally different universe.
- yencabulator 1y ago
  > several pickup trucks idling in the parking lot Way to make it very American..
avidiax 1y ago
Japan is obviously a "high trust" society, so I feel like this experiment will work. I wish we had a way to make this sort of system work in a low trust society.
- deadbabe 1y ago
  High trust environments tend to crumble in society when you allow too much immigration. Japan’s xenophobia has worked well in this regard.
  - vasco 1y ago
    And a 99.8% conviction rate.
    - HPsquared 1y ago
      Only 33 prisoners per 100k population (cf 541 in the US). Whatever they're doing, it's working. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarce...
      - yorwba 1y ago
        In 2024, the average US prison sentence was for a duration of 52 months, with over half the total months being for drug trafficking (average 82 months) https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/federal-sentencing-statistics/state-district-circuit/2024/tx24.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu... (page 11). Also in 2024, Japanese prison sentences were mostly between 1 and 3 years, and about two thirds were fully suspended. https://www.moj.go.jp/content/001436547.pdf https://www.moj.go.jp/content/001436547.pdf (page 20). Assuming an average of two years for the third not-fully-suspended, that works out to 8 months of time spent in prison per person handed a prison sentence. That results in about a factor of 7 difference in prison population simply due to the difference in average sentence length. Maybe the US should sentence more people to prison but keep each of them there shorter.

92 points by techdar42 1y ago

FugeDaws 1y ago

Even shops with security guards dont work in the UK at the moment. It's a shame this could never be a thing here.

n4r9 1y ago
It's tempting to see security guards as a basic response to criminal behaviour. But I wonder if the causality is more complex than that. I can easily imagine growing up under different circumstances to view society as a case of "me" vs "them", and I'd be more inclined to lift from shops run by people who clearly see me as enough of a low-life that they'd pay some thugs to man-handle me out.
- lesostep 1y ago
  I live in a city where self-checkout was implemented for bus rides. You still had a chance for a random bus inspection, but generally you can just walk into the bus and not pay anything, then walk out. It was so strange at first, to see everyone paying when there was no authority demanding a payment. Knowing that government trusts people around me to behave like good citizens, and knowing how many people actually follow the rules, definitely helped me to feel safer in the city. 15 years ago you had to put your wallet in the inner pocket because bags and outer pockets routinely got slashed. Now I can leave my bag on a bench. This difference got erased only when economy became more stable, and employment went up. But I didn't know that I could leave my bag on a bench before I saw with my own eyes that almost everyone tries to be a good citizen. Even if there is no punishment and a small reward for behaving badly
  - hilbert42 1y ago
    "15 years ago you had to put your wallet in the inner pocket because bags and outer pockets routinely got slashed." It's decades since I backpacked around Europe on trains and such, and back then slashing pockets and bags was rife. I never traveled anywhere unless I was wearing a money belt strapped to my waist—it held my passport, traveler's checks, large denomination notes and credit cards. I kept my wallet (with only a small amount of cash) in my front jeans pockets—I reckoned that down there I'd notice any slashing pretty quickly. Pants with side pockets were a no-no because they were too easy to pickpocket. I recall one particularly bad incident in Italy of being surrounded by organised mobs of kids who'd act in ways to distract one's attention whilst others tried to pickpocket one's valuables. I came out unscathed because I was wary from the start. Later I was living and working in Europe and it was very obvious to me that this sort of crime is much more prevalent in areas where people are unemployed or where there is a great disparity between rich and poor. I've no doubt the solution to such crime is having a society where the distribution of wealth is more equitable. Re that point and yours about self-checkout for bus rides. That system was implemented a few years ago where I am. I've made the interesting observation that those who travel outside normal to-and-from work hours—say late morning and early afternoon—are the ones most likely to not swipe their travel card on the payment terminal. When I've traveled at those times I'm surprised at the numbers who do not pay. This is in stark contrast to those who are traveling to and from work, at those hours just about everyone pays. Again, this, no doubt, is an equity/financial issue. Those traveling in the 'off hours' are more likely to be unemployed and or financially hard up.
smusamashah 1y ago
As a counter point, when I came to UK, it was super weird to see self checkout machines. Where I am from (Pakistan), I can't imagine anything like that. Although watched a video recently where in a rural area a guy left a cart of fruits on the side of road for people to buy the fruits and pay by themselves, at the end of the day cash was just little bit less than total amount. These machines in UK felt like I was being trusted to pick items myself, and pay myself and I shouldn't break that trust. Ironically I don't see these self checkout machines in Indian/Turkish/Kurdish etc super stores. In-fact, those stores trust there customers even less, they would ask you to leave your bags/trolleys at the door.
- vidarh 1y ago
  You're on multiple cameras for most of the self-checkouts in the UK, with at least some both capturing your face and an overhead view that will trigger a "are you sure you scanned this" complete with replay of what looked to the system of you potentially failing to scan an item before putting it on the scales on the other end if it looks like you move something past the scanner without the scanner triggering. The system will also typically signal for an attendant if you after a short amount of time ensures the weight on the receiving end matches the expected weight of the items scanned so far. There's not all that much trust involved in it, and I think just being aware of the cameras will make most people who might be tempted think twice. Of course it's possible to steal still, but it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs the shrinkage to add up to a lower cost than having more people at the tills.
  - swah 1y ago
    I think OP was afraid of making a mistake and stealing by accident. I also don't like to use those systems if I have many hard to pack items. But at some point I guess you just remove humans completely.
- guappa 1y ago
  They just save more money not hiring the cashier.

Towaway69 1y ago

(2021)

hilbert42 1y ago

That's wonderful, but it's not a big surprise for me. When in Tokyo I encountered vending machines on a public street (the Ginza) that dispensed bottles of whiskey—Suntory if I recall—that operated 24 hours a day. If you wanted a drink at 3AM you could get it. Where I am that vending machine would be vandalized overnight and the owner of such an appliance shop would be broke and out of business the next day. Shame really. Edit: A Westerner but longtime resident of Japan told me when I was working there of a hotel robbery where an American tourist had valuables and jewelry worth a substantial sum taken from her hotel room. The robbery was big enough to make the newspapers which led to the return of the jewelry. The thief after seeing the news story returned them with a message to the effect "Sorry, I wouldn't have stolen them if I'd known you were a visiting tourist". Perhaps the story is apocryphal but it and other stories such as if you lose your wallet there's good chance it'll be returned complete with cash—is testament to the honesty of Japanese people.

rjh29 1y ago
Those vending machines are supposed to check ID but I've never seen one do (I think cigarette machines do). They just turn off at night and apparently that's enough to stop children from using them.
- hilbert42 1y ago
  It's quite some time since I've been there but I can't remember an ID system being in place. I didn't have to produce an ID and usually I selected non-alcoholic drinks. However, that was before the proliferation of smartphones, so back then it is likely there was no ID checking. As a nonsmoker, I can't speak about cigarette machines, likely there was no ID on them too. Nowadays, with smartphones etc. checking IDs is comparatively easy but I can't think how it would have been done back then.
  - rjh29 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taspo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taspo

ballenf 1y ago

I'm blown away by a fridge costing <$100, used or not. Did I misunderstand the prices?

gregjw 1y ago
No, you didn't. Says 10,000 yen, so about 70USD at the moment.
vidarh 1y ago
A quick search shows I can get fridges used for less than that in London, though mostly small ones. I guess to a lot of people, when they replace goods like that, the hassle of selling it outweighs the perceived return
yourusername 1y ago
I can buy used fridges all day long for €50. I've gotten fridges for free that were still good for years after that. No one wants used white goods. Fridges, washing machines and dishwashers you can pick up below $100 easily.

whatsupdog 1y ago

[flagged]

NaOH 1y ago

Sorta related: Honesty Boxes in Scotland (2024) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44824684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44824684 - Aug 2025 (59 comments)

yorwba 1y ago

What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honeypot for all the less-trustworthy individuals that exist in any society. Maybe the highest trust here is in the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft.

bapak 1y ago
> the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft. That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)
- madaxe_again 1y ago
  Or just the insurers paying up because the police provided a crime number. This is how it works in the U.K. - everyone has cctv, not because it prevents theft or allows the police to investigate, but rather because it allows you insurance coverage for any losses.
  - Anonbrit 1y ago
    If insurance became expensive enough (and logically the price must continue to rise as claims increase) then there will be a financial advantage for companies to design their shops not to need such insurance
- socalgal2 1y ago
  I wonder what does it take to get a society to have low criminality. IIUC Japan wasn't always this way. Could other societies become high trust? Singapore is. It wasn't always

w15v 1y ago

[dead]

CorbenDallas 1y ago

in some countries honour is to steal from "rich", so not universal :)

RataNova 1y ago

This is one of those "only in Japan" stories that somehow manages to be both heartwarming and surreal

bob1029 1y ago

You still see little islands of high trust in the US. I walked out of an HEB the other day and there were several pickup trucks idling in the parking lot with nobody inside of them. You could open the door and drive off with zero effort if you could find the insanity to do so. I often dont bother to lock my doors at home. The Walmart here doesn't hassle you upon exiting. The local community feels incredibly safe. Drive 20 miles south and you'll find a totally different universe.

yencabulator 1y ago
> several pickup trucks idling in the parking lot Way to make it very American..

avidiax 1y ago

Japan is obviously a "high trust" society, so I feel like this experiment will work. I wish we had a way to make this sort of system work in a low trust society.

deadbabe 1y ago
High trust environments tend to crumble in society when you allow too much immigration. Japan’s xenophobia has worked well in this regard.
- vasco 1y ago
  And a 99.8% conviction rate.
  - HPsquared 1y ago
    Only 33 prisoners per 100k population (cf 541 in the US). Whatever they're doing, it's working. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarce...
    - yorwba 1y ago
      In 2024, the average US prison sentence was for a duration of 52 months, with over half the total months being for drug trafficking (average 82 months) https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/federal-sentencing-statistics/state-district-circuit/2024/tx24.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu... (page 11). Also in 2024, Japanese prison sentences were mostly between 1 and 3 years, and about two thirds were fully suspended. https://www.moj.go.jp/content/001436547.pdf https://www.moj.go.jp/content/001436547.pdf (page 20). Assuming an average of two years for the third not-fully-suspended, that works out to 8 months of time spent in prison per person handed a prison sentence. That results in about a factor of 7 difference in prison population simply due to the difference in average sentence length. Maybe the US should sentence more people to prison but keep each of them there shorter.