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> Sure. Nothing I suggested is being done. Does that not invalidate a reasonable amount of your points above? > Nobody argued this. I view what Israel is doi

> Sure. Nothing I suggested is being done. Does that not invalidate a reasonable amount of your points above? > Nobody argued this. I view what Israel is doing now as exactly that. There is an argument it has been doing it for decades.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Does that not invalidate a reasonable amount of your points above? Which ones? The original point is that detaining a Hamas member is not unusual even if they were just a librarian. I find it "reasonable to act on hunches in wartime provided" such prisoners are "treated like POWs." But reasonableness is not the same as precedent. While Israeli torture is certainly far along the spectrum of what America and China have done, and Russia and India are suspected to have done when dealing with hybrid elements, it's not particularly outlying. What is outlying is detaining an elderly mother and leaving her children on the streets. That was my top-level argument. Focussing on the common horribleness is good for, I guess, educating everyone on why we shouldn't do war. But if the horribleness isn't particular to this war, that message is not only lost, it serves to cover up the specific horribleness that increasingly sets this one apart.
- NomDePlum 1y ago
  If they aren't being treated like POW's then your argument doesn't hold in this case. So hunches for instance aren't reasonable because they will lead to non-POW treatment of whoever is detained. How they are classified is also no longer relevant as we are talking about a proposition to detain and mistreat regardless of classification. And I'd go further and say it's deliberate. Similarly, I don't really hold with arguments that are based on others doing the same or worse. It doesn't change for me that the objective here being pursued is collective punishment. What's been enacted is clearly not warfare but deliberate targeting of the whole population in addition to ethnic cleansing/genocide, so in an entirely different category to assess.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Does that not invalidate a reasonable amount of your points above? Which ones? The original point is that detaining a Hamas member is not unusual even if they were just a librarian. I find it "reasonable to act on hunches in wartime provided" such prisoners are "treated like POWs." But reasonableness is not the same as precedent. While Israeli torture is certainly far along the spectrum of what America and China have done, and Russia and India are suspected to have done when dealing with hybrid elements, it's not particularly outlying. What is outlying is detaining an elderly mother and leaving her children on the streets. That was my top-level argument. Focussing on the common horribleness is good for, I guess, educating everyone on why we shouldn't do war. But if the horribleness isn't particular to this war, that message is not only lost, it serves to cover up the specific horribleness that increasingly sets this one apart.

NomDePlum 1y ago
If they aren't being treated like POW's then your argument doesn't hold in this case. So hunches for instance aren't reasonable because they will lead to non-POW treatment of whoever is detained. How they are classified is also no longer relevant as we are talking about a proposition to detain and mistreat regardless of classification. And I'd go further and say it's deliberate. Similarly, I don't really hold with arguments that are based on others doing the same or worse. It doesn't change for me that the objective here being pursued is collective punishment. What's been enacted is clearly not warfare but deliberate targeting of the whole population in addition to ethnic cleansing/genocide, so in an entirely different category to assess.