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As the product offering has changed after purchase. Would this not be grounds for returning the product for a full refund?

sniffers 1y ago
No? Can you return your pixel phone because some Gmail feature changed?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ragebol 1y ago
  No. But maybe you should. The thing got less useful, thus less valuable.
- zettabomb 1y ago
  This comparison is invalid. Gmail is a separate product from the phone, and importantly, not advertised as being included with the phone. BMW owners are paying separately for the API access, which has now been limited after the sale.
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    You accept a license agreement and terms and conditions when you buy the car which lets them pretty much do anything they want with the software. Do you think these company are run by a bunch of 12 year olds and not their legal departments. How can you be so pedantic but at the same time so naive? Edit: I don't like it either.
    - lan321 1y ago
      The question is whether that should be allowed as products become more and more software based. Should software be treated (more) like hardware?
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - supermatt 1y ago
      > How can you be so pedantic but at the same time so naive? Wow, insulting others when you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. In the EU a license agreement cant override your consumer rights. If the car was marketed as having a cardata feature and now that feature is restricted, under EU law you are entitled for it to be restored or fairly compensated - which could mean returning the car if it was a marketed feature and a major factor in the purchasing decision - although it’s more likely to be a monetary compensation for minor features. There’s even specific guidance for “digital elements” of products to cover things exactly like this. I haven’t returned a car, but I have either returned or requested compensation for other consumer items for similar reasons - and was compensated fairly given their use.
      - BoredPositron 1y ago
        Go and sue them we will wait with anticipation for the ruling. Last sentence from my first comment stands and could be applied to you as well. Just had a look at their Terms and Conditions and they are pretty clear. >> Why should a car be different in regards to software than your washing machine, tv or iPhone?
        stavros 1y ago
        Again, terms and conditions can't override consumer rights. The car shouldn't be different from the washing machine, the TV, and the iPhone. I should get a refund if functionality is removed from any of them after purchase.
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        It's done everyday by thousands of companies and I've never seen a ruling in the EU or otherwise. Apple still throttles iPhones, Google still kills services paid or free. Samsung pushes ads into their smartTVs... Everyone in this thread makes these comments with full confidence but the real world reflects the opposite.
        supermatt 1y ago
    - zettabomb 1y ago
      >You accept a license agreement when you buy the car which lets them pretty much do anything they want with the software. This cannot override your rights as a consumer. If I sell you a service, I'm required to provide you that service as agreed upon at time of purchase for the duration of the contract. >How can you be so pedantic but at the same time so naive? This is hardly pedantic.
      - BoredPositron 1y ago
        >> Why should a car be different in regards to software than your washing machine, tv or iPhone?
        zettabomb 1y ago
        It shouldn't be different. It's also illegal to not fulfill the contract as agreed upon in those cases, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. And the product in question is not the car, the API access is provided as a separate subscription service.
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        If it's a seperate t&c and license agreement for the api it's even easier for them to disable services. You are making these statement with so much confidence but the real world works the opposite. Apple throttles iPhones, Google kills services pair of free. Samsung pushes ads on their smarttvos. I think their lawyers are right and you misunderstand the law you are citing otherwise the world would be a better place :) I don't like it either but it is what it is.
        zettabomb 1y ago
        Just because it happens and the companies face no consequences does not mean that it is legal. The problem is that the lawyers aren't getting involved at all because no one bothers to sue, due to the difficulty and (usually) relatively small amount of money involved.
- numpad0 1y ago
  But you can probably cancel plans, send back binary to noreply@gmail.com, and get refund for services not yet rendered, that's same as returning the car with deduction for miles driven
jjani 1y ago
A full refund likely not, but compensation likely in countries with proper laws around this like Germany (especially apt since BMW) or Australia.
fluidcruft 1y ago
Would you expect a full refund from BMW if it were Home Assistant that removed the feature?
- brador 1y ago
  Your contract is with the entity you paid. So technically, yeah.
  - fluidcruft 1y ago
    It just strikes me as immediately unreasonable from a common sense point-of-view. I'm also not convinced BMW specifically marketed integration with Home Assistant vs generic integrations with say Alexa or Google Home or whatever Apple calls theirs. And I'll expect the small print to say that third-party integrations are not guaranteed.
- navigate8310 1y ago
  In that case, it's not BMW that removed the feature but the downstream independent dependency

sniffers 1y ago

No? Can you return your pixel phone because some Gmail feature changed?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ragebol 1y ago
No. But maybe you should. The thing got less useful, thus less valuable.
zettabomb 1y ago
This comparison is invalid. Gmail is a separate product from the phone, and importantly, not advertised as being included with the phone. BMW owners are paying separately for the API access, which has now been limited after the sale.
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  You accept a license agreement and terms and conditions when you buy the car which lets them pretty much do anything they want with the software. Do you think these company are run by a bunch of 12 year olds and not their legal departments. How can you be so pedantic but at the same time so naive? Edit: I don't like it either.
  - lan321 1y ago
    The question is whether that should be allowed as products become more and more software based. Should software be treated (more) like hardware?
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - supermatt 1y ago
    > How can you be so pedantic but at the same time so naive? Wow, insulting others when you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. In the EU a license agreement cant override your consumer rights. If the car was marketed as having a cardata feature and now that feature is restricted, under EU law you are entitled for it to be restored or fairly compensated - which could mean returning the car if it was a marketed feature and a major factor in the purchasing decision - although it’s more likely to be a monetary compensation for minor features. There’s even specific guidance for “digital elements” of products to cover things exactly like this. I haven’t returned a car, but I have either returned or requested compensation for other consumer items for similar reasons - and was compensated fairly given their use.
    - BoredPositron 1y ago
      Go and sue them we will wait with anticipation for the ruling. Last sentence from my first comment stands and could be applied to you as well. Just had a look at their Terms and Conditions and they are pretty clear. >> Why should a car be different in regards to software than your washing machine, tv or iPhone?
      - stavros 1y ago
        Again, terms and conditions can't override consumer rights. The car shouldn't be different from the washing machine, the TV, and the iPhone. I should get a refund if functionality is removed from any of them after purchase.
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        It's done everyday by thousands of companies and I've never seen a ruling in the EU or otherwise. Apple still throttles iPhones, Google still kills services paid or free. Samsung pushes ads into their smartTVs... Everyone in this thread makes these comments with full confidence but the real world reflects the opposite.
        supermatt 1y ago
  - zettabomb 1y ago
    >You accept a license agreement when you buy the car which lets them pretty much do anything they want with the software. This cannot override your rights as a consumer. If I sell you a service, I'm required to provide you that service as agreed upon at time of purchase for the duration of the contract. >How can you be so pedantic but at the same time so naive? This is hardly pedantic.
    - BoredPositron 1y ago
      >> Why should a car be different in regards to software than your washing machine, tv or iPhone?
      - zettabomb 1y ago
        It shouldn't be different. It's also illegal to not fulfill the contract as agreed upon in those cases, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. And the product in question is not the car, the API access is provided as a separate subscription service.
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        If it's a seperate t&c and license agreement for the api it's even easier for them to disable services. You are making these statement with so much confidence but the real world works the opposite. Apple throttles iPhones, Google kills services pair of free. Samsung pushes ads on their smarttvos. I think their lawyers are right and you misunderstand the law you are citing otherwise the world would be a better place :) I don't like it either but it is what it is.
        zettabomb 1y ago
        Just because it happens and the companies face no consequences does not mean that it is legal. The problem is that the lawyers aren't getting involved at all because no one bothers to sue, due to the difficulty and (usually) relatively small amount of money involved.
numpad0 1y ago
But you can probably cancel plans, send back binary to noreply@gmail.com, and get refund for services not yet rendered, that's same as returning the car with deduction for miles driven

jjani 1y ago

A full refund likely not, but compensation likely in countries with proper laws around this like Germany (especially apt since BMW) or Australia.

fluidcruft 1y ago

Would you expect a full refund from BMW if it were Home Assistant that removed the feature?

brador 1y ago
Your contract is with the entity you paid. So technically, yeah.
- fluidcruft 1y ago
  It just strikes me as immediately unreasonable from a common sense point-of-view. I'm also not convinced BMW specifically marketed integration with Home Assistant vs generic integrations with say Alexa or Google Home or whatever Apple calls theirs. And I'll expect the small print to say that third-party integrations are not guaranteed.
navigate8310 1y ago
In that case, it's not BMW that removed the feature but the downstream independent dependency