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I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious. High school me was a moron and should not be trus

I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious. High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol Once he's grown and has a job he will one day realize and be thankful for the teachers that forced him to do the work. Obviously not true for all students but I don't think it harms anyone inverting it but please point out if I'm wrong!

SoftTalker 1y ago
Some assignments are bigger than can be done in one class period. And class time is for lecture; there isn't a lot of time for students to work problems on their own. So we're just dealing with what (some) students have always done: get someone else to write the report or do the math homework. Or have parents pay a tutor to help. Or use Cliff's Notes instead of reading the book. But now it's trivially easy and free. There are no obstacles to cheating other than knowing it's wrong and self-defeating, and those are things that young people don't really have a well-developed sense about.
- skybrian 1y ago
  Some people promote a “flipped classroom” where you’re supposed to watch video lectures on your own and classroom time is used to discuss them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
  - kmote00 1y ago
    That's funny that I just had that idea around the same time that you must have been typing your answer. (See my adjacent answer). Actually thought it was probably a crazy idea and would get quickly downvoted. Quite surprised that there's already a Wikipedia article about it. Cool.
- kmote00 1y ago
  What about this idea: flip the script. Students must learn the subject OUTside of class: teacher provides video lectures for those that want to use them, but any source is open game -- YouTube, AI, you name it. Then class time is reserved exclusively for doing the assignments. No phones or computers allowed.
  - jeremyjh 1y ago
    So teachers are...proctors? No reason to have every teacher recording their own lectures. One teacher per grade per district? Per state? Outsourced to the lowest bidder who generates it with AI?
    - DiscourseFan 1y ago
      Hey now we’re talking! But seriously, teaching in public schools these days relies so much on technology, youtube, that it makes no sense to have teacher’s as paid professionals, just get subscriptions to technology services for the kids and teach them how to work them. I think we still need places to socialize kids, but that’s a different job. Anyway, yes, too many teachers are simply there to enforce unnecessary social hierarchies and rigid modes of thinking, there is no need for most of them.
      - jeremyjh 1y ago
        Did your kids spend a year doing virtual classes? Our district here did a pretty good job compared to most, but for many kids it was basically a lost year.
        DiscourseFan 1y ago
        No I was a teacher before I started working in this industry
    - lmm 1y ago
      There is far more value in skilled individual attention at the doing exercises stage - helping where people are stuck, figuring out which parts need revision - than at the lecture stage. Think about how college seminars work - you do the reading on your own, the learning happens when you're digging into it in a group setting.
mrheosuper 1y ago
> High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol I knew some people doing great at high school due to being forced to study. Then they taste the "freedom" in college and fail hard because no one tells them what to do now.
- Aerroon 1y ago
  They might perform well, but might hate every second of it. I was like that. For example, high school poisoned reading for me. I hated fiction for several years after high school.
  - ponector 1y ago
    Right. I was forced to study, I hate it. Now I'm forced to work, quite good at what I do, but hate it as well.
    - blitzar 1y ago
      Some might say school is designed not to educate people, but to train them for the workplace.
BrenBarn 1y ago
Part of the problem is that in some areas schools (and parents) have leaned so heavily into certain notions of "equity" or "care" that they no longer are willing to require anything so specific. I use quotes because while I think there is value in moving more towards those goals than schools often did in the past, I think it's possible to take it too far. At some point there has to be some sort of standard that has to be met, and by pushing that point further and further into life (e.g, from junior high to high school to college) we're similarly lowering the bar in various areas of life. I've met numerous parents who seem to be offended by the idea that someone would tell their child "You must do this, even if you don't want to" in basically any context. In the past I think such things were said in many contexts where they shouldn't have been, but the pendulum is swinging a bit too far the other way these days.
- Centigonal 1y ago
  Doing all the work in the classroom is more equitable for students who don't have comfortable and quiet places to do work at home. It's harder for those who have additional accommodations at home, but we could arrange for those accommodations to be made in the school, and those who have accommodations at home are in a better position to advocate for getting what they need than those with rough or busy home lives.
- lurking_swe 1y ago
  the funny thing is those kind of parents are just handicapping their own kids. Or is it sad? Maybe both. I’m sure they’ll be very proud when their child grows into a half functioning adult that can’t cope with real life. These type of parents are so shortsighted it literally hurts my brain to interact with them lol.
godelski 1y ago
> I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious. Because that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time. Of course, the other option is to extend school time. Here's a good litmus test: if something seems very obvious, you're likely missing some hidden complexity. It's not a perfect test, but if it's obvious to you and not to the people closer to the problem then there really should be alarm bells going off in your head. That feeling of "this is weird" is your brain telling you "I'm missing something" not "everyone is so dumb" (well... not mutually exclusive)
- Swizec 1y ago
  > Because that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time. Homework is the real education time. The lecture is less than half the ingredients. You can't learn without engaging with the material. The best lectures follow a question-trytoanswer-getrightanswer pattern where students are basically doing homework as part of the lecture. We wrote all graded essays during class. It was great. Nice and timeboxed. When you're done you're done. Also forces you to keep it short enough that the teacher doesn't drown in stuff to grade because how much can you really write by hand in 2 hours?
  - godelski 1y ago
    > The best lectures follow a question-trytoanswer-getrightanswer pattern where students are basically doing homework as part of the lecture. Are you referring to the Socratic Method? I agree that homework is where a significant chunk of learning happens but I'm highly skeptical that the utility is preserved through such a short timeframe. Spaced repetition is highly effective for memory, and this is baked into any method which has take home assignments. A collaborative style lecture is good, but this serves a different purpose. > We wrote all graded essays during class. Sorry, you jumped a little here. Who is "we"? Is there a "when" and "where" to this too? Are you a current high schooler? Recent grad? Was this years ago? I've lost the context here.
    - 1y ago

SoftTalker 1y ago

Some assignments are bigger than can be done in one class period. And class time is for lecture; there isn't a lot of time for students to work problems on their own. So we're just dealing with what (some) students have always done: get someone else to write the report or do the math homework. Or have parents pay a tutor to help. Or use Cliff's Notes instead of reading the book. But now it's trivially easy and free. There are no obstacles to cheating other than knowing it's wrong and self-defeating, and those are things that young people don't really have a well-developed sense about.

skybrian 1y ago
Some people promote a “flipped classroom” where you’re supposed to watch video lectures on your own and classroom time is used to discuss them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
- kmote00 1y ago
  That's funny that I just had that idea around the same time that you must have been typing your answer. (See my adjacent answer). Actually thought it was probably a crazy idea and would get quickly downvoted. Quite surprised that there's already a Wikipedia article about it. Cool.
kmote00 1y ago
What about this idea: flip the script. Students must learn the subject OUTside of class: teacher provides video lectures for those that want to use them, but any source is open game -- YouTube, AI, you name it. Then class time is reserved exclusively for doing the assignments. No phones or computers allowed.
- jeremyjh 1y ago
  So teachers are...proctors? No reason to have every teacher recording their own lectures. One teacher per grade per district? Per state? Outsourced to the lowest bidder who generates it with AI?
  - DiscourseFan 1y ago
    Hey now we’re talking! But seriously, teaching in public schools these days relies so much on technology, youtube, that it makes no sense to have teacher’s as paid professionals, just get subscriptions to technology services for the kids and teach them how to work them. I think we still need places to socialize kids, but that’s a different job. Anyway, yes, too many teachers are simply there to enforce unnecessary social hierarchies and rigid modes of thinking, there is no need for most of them.
    - jeremyjh 1y ago
      Did your kids spend a year doing virtual classes? Our district here did a pretty good job compared to most, but for many kids it was basically a lost year.
      - DiscourseFan 1y ago
        No I was a teacher before I started working in this industry
  - lmm 1y ago
    There is far more value in skilled individual attention at the doing exercises stage - helping where people are stuck, figuring out which parts need revision - than at the lecture stage. Think about how college seminars work - you do the reading on your own, the learning happens when you're digging into it in a group setting.

mrheosuper 1y ago

> High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol I knew some people doing great at high school due to being forced to study. Then they taste the "freedom" in college and fail hard because no one tells them what to do now.

Aerroon 1y ago
They might perform well, but might hate every second of it. I was like that. For example, high school poisoned reading for me. I hated fiction for several years after high school.
- ponector 1y ago
  Right. I was forced to study, I hate it. Now I'm forced to work, quite good at what I do, but hate it as well.
  - blitzar 1y ago
    Some might say school is designed not to educate people, but to train them for the workplace.

BrenBarn 1y ago

Part of the problem is that in some areas schools (and parents) have leaned so heavily into certain notions of "equity" or "care" that they no longer are willing to require anything so specific. I use quotes because while I think there is value in moving more towards those goals than schools often did in the past, I think it's possible to take it too far. At some point there has to be some sort of standard that has to be met, and by pushing that point further and further into life (e.g, from junior high to high school to college) we're similarly lowering the bar in various areas of life. I've met numerous parents who seem to be offended by the idea that someone would tell their child "You must do this, even if you don't want to" in basically any context. In the past I think such things were said in many contexts where they shouldn't have been, but the pendulum is swinging a bit too far the other way these days.

Centigonal 1y ago
Doing all the work in the classroom is more equitable for students who don't have comfortable and quiet places to do work at home. It's harder for those who have additional accommodations at home, but we could arrange for those accommodations to be made in the school, and those who have accommodations at home are in a better position to advocate for getting what they need than those with rough or busy home lives.
lurking_swe 1y ago
the funny thing is those kind of parents are just handicapping their own kids. Or is it sad? Maybe both. I’m sure they’ll be very proud when their child grows into a half functioning adult that can’t cope with real life. These type of parents are so shortsighted it literally hurts my brain to interact with them lol.

godelski 1y ago

> I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious. Because that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time. Of course, the other option is to extend school time. Here's a good litmus test: if something seems very obvious, you're likely missing some hidden complexity. It's not a perfect test, but if it's obvious to you and not to the people closer to the problem then there really should be alarm bells going off in your head. That feeling of "this is weird" is your brain telling you "I'm missing something" not "everyone is so dumb" (well... not mutually exclusive)

Swizec 1y ago
> Because that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time. Homework is the real education time. The lecture is less than half the ingredients. You can't learn without engaging with the material. The best lectures follow a question-trytoanswer-getrightanswer pattern where students are basically doing homework as part of the lecture. We wrote all graded essays during class. It was great. Nice and timeboxed. When you're done you're done. Also forces you to keep it short enough that the teacher doesn't drown in stuff to grade because how much can you really write by hand in 2 hours?
- godelski 1y ago
  > The best lectures follow a question-trytoanswer-getrightanswer pattern where students are basically doing homework as part of the lecture. Are you referring to the Socratic Method? I agree that homework is where a significant chunk of learning happens but I'm highly skeptical that the utility is preserved through such a short timeframe. Spaced repetition is highly effective for memory, and this is baked into any method which has take home assignments. A collaborative style lecture is good, but this serves a different purpose. > We wrote all graded essays during class. Sorry, you jumped a little here. Who is "we"? Is there a "when" and "where" to this too? Are you a current high schooler? Recent grad? Was this years ago? I've lost the context here.
  - 1y ago