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> lack the endogenous mechanisms It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof for

> lack the endogenous mechanisms It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof forced the brain to reroute blood flow through "paths" that were less impacted by the bug. if you can increase the blood flow through the originally responsible paths, you can recover any buried mechanism. people with ADHD and stuff who had only slightly lower blood and or oxygen flow in the PFC, improve the negative symptoms of their ADHD as soon as normal levels of blood/oxygen flows through the PFC. this is true for any area in the brain*. I'm sure there's studies on post-ischemic recovery that confirm all this. Identifying entire paths through brain areas is no simple task, of course. But comparing "issues" to normal and extreme behaviors usually draws a more or less unambiguous graph. *better blood flow and better oxygen supply usually mean better performance for any organism (or part of it)

fwipsy 1y ago
This seems like a strong claim, and I've never heard of it before. Can you provide sources?
- devin 1y ago
  The only part of this that rhymed with something I'm aware of is growth in the PFC in practicing meditators and a relation to improvement of ADHD symptoms among other things, though I don't recall whether it was a good study or not. I think I read that more than a decade ago.
  - wtbdbrrr 1y ago
    That's changes in brain chemistry via lifestyle changes. Meditation, if practiced at least adequately intense, creates a time interval that is entirely different to anything an ADHD mind is accustomed to. Meditation is not a dream, not the Default Mode Network under control. You are awake, "lucid", not rooted in your imagination or some other cognitive style/process resulting from "hyperlight association" or similar common phenomena.
- jimkri 1y ago
  I’m not backing that comment claim, but from recent research I’ve been doing. My ADHD brain is lacking non-essential and essential amino acids/minerals,I think that comment stated the brain then rewires to compensate for the lack of nutrients. Thats what I’m taking. I’ve been taking Spirulina as my booster to help fill in my nutrition deficiencies and then I’ve been feeling better leading me to get past the anxiety and rumination. Richard Feynman wrote about it, that you can be hypothesized and want to do something and know you can, but you don’t or just can’t. The article is great. One thing I’ve been doing is trying to make Arts and Crafts again. I’m starting to incorporate Ai and my family to show what we can do. Then it’s starting to lead to everyone documenting their days with voice notes and more conversations
  - ajkjk 1y ago
    that's not 'research'
    - jimkri 1y ago
      Here are some of the studies that I have been reading to back up my 'research', but I realized I didn't include anything after, so you are not wrong. > Study - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7995246/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7995246/ > Study - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6309508/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6309508/ I have some others that I'm reading that I can also share if you are interested. This is the spirulina I have been taking: https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Chlorella-Spirulina-250-Tablets/dp/B00FAB10ZI?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Chlorella-Spirulina-250-Table... I started taking it over 8 years ago, took a break for a year, and then restarted by taking 2 doses and another later in the afternoon if I ran earlier. I can sweat heavily and will sweat out amino acids.
    - vntok 1y ago
      What would you call it?
      - hinkley 1y ago
        Trying things.
- wtbdbrrr 1y ago
  I'm sorry that I don't have the time to look further. But tangential sources could be fMRI studies in general but definitely those related to cognitive performance during and after recovery from ischemia. Also: studies on sexual development, the inhibition of sex hormone metabolisms. And I'm quite certain that some of Michael Levin's research could provide some bits, too. But I am not sure what keywords I would start with.
Nevermark 1y ago
> It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof forced the brain to reroute blood flow through "paths" that were less impacted by the bug. I don't think there is any solid basis to say this. There has been at least one study that linked greater differences between right and left prefrontal cortex blood flow, favoring the right, to greater ADHD symptoms. > "higher levels of right relative rCBF and lower levels of left relative rCBF were predictors of higher severity of clinical symptom expression" [0] But developmental differences are pervasively correlated, without contributing to common phenomena, even more so for proximate phenomena, because developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body. This makes the bar for causal claims very high. There could be no functional correlation, just developmental correlation. The difference could be causally reverse. I.e. differences in lateral PFC development generated the differences in circulatory recruitment, not the other way around. Or there is some functional-physical causation, but ADHD is correlated with many other brain differences too. So is it significant? Then, even if it were significant, Would reducing/increasing blood flow between the post-development sides really have net benefit now? Seems unlikely that any decrease anywhere, even with increases elsewhere, post-development, would be uniformly helpful. And finally, increasing blood flow is completely different from a re-balance. Increasing blood flow, or simply increasing oxygen in available air, improves the function of almost everything in the body. Everyone will benefit from more oxygen to the prefrontal cortex, up to a point. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11725823/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11725823/
- wtbdbrrr 1y ago
  awesome, thanks. > I don't think there is any solid basis to say this. The history of eugenic programs as well the blocking of male/female sex hormones to inhibit sexual development or for transitional purposes should reveal a solid basis. Brain/body are capable of recovering close to a genetic baseline, at least up to some age. > developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body. I read too little about that in edge cases, but in brains and bodies that developed normally, these changes are ever so slight that, as is commonly known, radically changing diets and lifestyle can recover the genetic baseline. Physical and psychological manifestations and changes are bio-chemistry and neuro-chemistry, and I do mean the one-to-one match as much as the correlates. Bad posture ruins the kinetic chain as much as it impedes systemic metabolic logistics (blood circulation, lymphatic transport, ...). And if it happens too early and goes on for too long, the developmental differences to the genetic baseline become pervasive. But bad posture isn't ADHD or anxiety or temporal lobe epilepsy, for example, for which people with ADHD have a higher susceptibility for, all due to Neuroplasticity aka neural adaptation. But the intensity of any phenomenon depends to at least some more than "just barely" (3-5%) relevant degree on lifestyle and the psycho-social environment. Psychological traits are more nurture-dependent than physical traits but physical traits (can) have a massive influence on psychology, a lot of which can be attributed to how the environment perceives qualities and behaviors. For people with different sub-types of ADHD, this can either mean worlds-apart to their genetic baseline or just slightly off enough to be a tad bit bitter. This was a lot but here's what I'm getting at: > Seems unlikely that any decrease anywhere, even with increases elsewhere, post-development, would be uniformly helpful. Any increase towards baseline is beneficial throughout the entire affected graph of neural structures, as well as proximate ones. I assume there are fMRI studies on specific cognitive performance during ischemia and post-ischemia. Their findings should confirm that recovery from damage due to long-term hypodensity and decreased perfusion but that is also quite normal as any recovery from injury comes with a restoration of functionality. The reason I am mentioning ischemia specifically is that brains don't stop working just because some part suffers from a reduction in blood flow. But ischemia can last for a very long time, especially if undiagnosed. Developmental signals and ischemia are, of course, two entirely different things but the connection I see is the part where the brain reroutes neural signals simply because it's an innate mechanism, not an adaptive response. [citation needed, but I believe I read something about earlier this year. I am not uncertain.] While ADHD is "a genetic thing", it can also be the consequence of lifestyle and "psycho-social" environment aka nurture, without any part of the essential genetic component. But the intensity or severity of positive and or negative ADHD symptoms is mostly the result of lifestyle and nurture, for which the impact(s) of drugs, diet and environment are proof. So while it's absolutely true, that > developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body, there is definitely > functional-physical causation, that is significant.
hinkley 1y ago
My symptoms didn’t improve that much when I was an endurance athlete. Most of the improvements could be adequately explained by the hedonic treadmill. I could suffer longer.
- wtbdbrrr 1y ago
  But you did not suffer from a reduction to your genetic baseline. You went up from your baseline. > Most of the improvements could be adequately explained by the hedonic treadmill. I could suffer longer. That's chemistry in body and brain. There were changes.
  - hinkley 1y ago
    I’m talking about pain/annoyance threshold, not general neurochemistry.
    - wtbdbrrr 1y ago
      > pain/annoyance Can be mitigated via drugs and increasing thresholds with, as you did, training, which results in decreased stress hormone levels from lower forms of physiological and psychological stress, better lactate metabolisms (not sure it's an actual metabolism, but better fitness results in higher storage capacities for lactate and quicker recovery), etc. And endurance literally means your body and brain can suffer/sustain higher levels of stress due to fatigue and damage because the mechanisms causing "overflow" and "breakdown", "total collapse", even if it's just for the sake of reducing subsequent damage, are balanced by their biochemical counterparts and, again, higher storage capacities for pretty much everything body and brain produce while generating, transforming, exerting energy and all the exhaust ...

fwipsy 1y ago

This seems like a strong claim, and I've never heard of it before. Can you provide sources?

devin 1y ago
The only part of this that rhymed with something I'm aware of is growth in the PFC in practicing meditators and a relation to improvement of ADHD symptoms among other things, though I don't recall whether it was a good study or not. I think I read that more than a decade ago.
- wtbdbrrr 1y ago
  That's changes in brain chemistry via lifestyle changes. Meditation, if practiced at least adequately intense, creates a time interval that is entirely different to anything an ADHD mind is accustomed to. Meditation is not a dream, not the Default Mode Network under control. You are awake, "lucid", not rooted in your imagination or some other cognitive style/process resulting from "hyperlight association" or similar common phenomena.
jimkri 1y ago
I’m not backing that comment claim, but from recent research I’ve been doing. My ADHD brain is lacking non-essential and essential amino acids/minerals,I think that comment stated the brain then rewires to compensate for the lack of nutrients. Thats what I’m taking. I’ve been taking Spirulina as my booster to help fill in my nutrition deficiencies and then I’ve been feeling better leading me to get past the anxiety and rumination. Richard Feynman wrote about it, that you can be hypothesized and want to do something and know you can, but you don’t or just can’t. The article is great. One thing I’ve been doing is trying to make Arts and Crafts again. I’m starting to incorporate Ai and my family to show what we can do. Then it’s starting to lead to everyone documenting their days with voice notes and more conversations
- ajkjk 1y ago
  that's not 'research'
  - jimkri 1y ago
    Here are some of the studies that I have been reading to back up my 'research', but I realized I didn't include anything after, so you are not wrong. > Study - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7995246/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7995246/ > Study - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6309508/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6309508/ I have some others that I'm reading that I can also share if you are interested. This is the spirulina I have been taking: https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Chlorella-Spirulina-250-Tablets/dp/B00FAB10ZI?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Chlorella-Spirulina-250-Table... I started taking it over 8 years ago, took a break for a year, and then restarted by taking 2 doses and another later in the afternoon if I ran earlier. I can sweat heavily and will sweat out amino acids.
  - vntok 1y ago
    What would you call it?
    - hinkley 1y ago
      Trying things.
wtbdbrrr 1y ago
I'm sorry that I don't have the time to look further. But tangential sources could be fMRI studies in general but definitely those related to cognitive performance during and after recovery from ischemia. Also: studies on sexual development, the inhibition of sex hormone metabolisms. And I'm quite certain that some of Michael Levin's research could provide some bits, too. But I am not sure what keywords I would start with.

Nevermark 1y ago

> It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof forced the brain to reroute blood flow through "paths" that were less impacted by the bug. I don't think there is any solid basis to say this. There has been at least one study that linked greater differences between right and left prefrontal cortex blood flow, favoring the right, to greater ADHD symptoms. > "higher levels of right relative rCBF and lower levels of left relative rCBF were predictors of higher severity of clinical symptom expression" [0] But developmental differences are pervasively correlated, without contributing to common phenomena, even more so for proximate phenomena, because developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body. This makes the bar for causal claims very high. There could be no functional correlation, just developmental correlation. The difference could be causally reverse. I.e. differences in lateral PFC development generated the differences in circulatory recruitment, not the other way around. Or there is some functional-physical causation, but ADHD is correlated with many other brain differences too. So is it significant? Then, even if it were significant, Would reducing/increasing blood flow between the post-development sides really have net benefit now? Seems unlikely that any decrease anywhere, even with increases elsewhere, post-development, would be uniformly helpful. And finally, increasing blood flow is completely different from a re-balance. Increasing blood flow, or simply increasing oxygen in available air, improves the function of almost everything in the body. Everyone will benefit from more oxygen to the prefrontal cortex, up to a point. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11725823/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11725823/

wtbdbrrr 1y ago
awesome, thanks. > I don't think there is any solid basis to say this. The history of eugenic programs as well the blocking of male/female sex hormones to inhibit sexual development or for transitional purposes should reveal a solid basis. Brain/body are capable of recovering close to a genetic baseline, at least up to some age. > developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body. I read too little about that in edge cases, but in brains and bodies that developed normally, these changes are ever so slight that, as is commonly known, radically changing diets and lifestyle can recover the genetic baseline. Physical and psychological manifestations and changes are bio-chemistry and neuro-chemistry, and I do mean the one-to-one match as much as the correlates. Bad posture ruins the kinetic chain as much as it impedes systemic metabolic logistics (blood circulation, lymphatic transport, ...). And if it happens too early and goes on for too long, the developmental differences to the genetic baseline become pervasive. But bad posture isn't ADHD or anxiety or temporal lobe epilepsy, for example, for which people with ADHD have a higher susceptibility for, all due to Neuroplasticity aka neural adaptation. But the intensity of any phenomenon depends to at least some more than "just barely" (3-5%) relevant degree on lifestyle and the psycho-social environment. Psychological traits are more nurture-dependent than physical traits but physical traits (can) have a massive influence on psychology, a lot of which can be attributed to how the environment perceives qualities and behaviors. For people with different sub-types of ADHD, this can either mean worlds-apart to their genetic baseline or just slightly off enough to be a tad bit bitter. This was a lot but here's what I'm getting at: > Seems unlikely that any decrease anywhere, even with increases elsewhere, post-development, would be uniformly helpful. Any increase towards baseline is beneficial throughout the entire affected graph of neural structures, as well as proximate ones. I assume there are fMRI studies on specific cognitive performance during ischemia and post-ischemia. Their findings should confirm that recovery from damage due to long-term hypodensity and decreased perfusion but that is also quite normal as any recovery from injury comes with a restoration of functionality. The reason I am mentioning ischemia specifically is that brains don't stop working just because some part suffers from a reduction in blood flow. But ischemia can last for a very long time, especially if undiagnosed. Developmental signals and ischemia are, of course, two entirely different things but the connection I see is the part where the brain reroutes neural signals simply because it's an innate mechanism, not an adaptive response. [citation needed, but I believe I read something about earlier this year. I am not uncertain.] While ADHD is "a genetic thing", it can also be the consequence of lifestyle and "psycho-social" environment aka nurture, without any part of the essential genetic component. But the intensity or severity of positive and or negative ADHD symptoms is mostly the result of lifestyle and nurture, for which the impact(s) of drugs, diet and environment are proof. So while it's absolutely true, that > developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body, there is definitely > functional-physical causation, that is significant.

hinkley 1y ago

My symptoms didn’t improve that much when I was an endurance athlete. Most of the improvements could be adequately explained by the hedonic treadmill. I could suffer longer.

wtbdbrrr 1y ago
But you did not suffer from a reduction to your genetic baseline. You went up from your baseline. > Most of the improvements could be adequately explained by the hedonic treadmill. I could suffer longer. That's chemistry in body and brain. There were changes.
- hinkley 1y ago
  I’m talking about pain/annoyance threshold, not general neurochemistry.
  - wtbdbrrr 1y ago
    > pain/annoyance Can be mitigated via drugs and increasing thresholds with, as you did, training, which results in decreased stress hormone levels from lower forms of physiological and psychological stress, better lactate metabolisms (not sure it's an actual metabolism, but better fitness results in higher storage capacities for lactate and quicker recovery), etc. And endurance literally means your body and brain can suffer/sustain higher levels of stress due to fatigue and damage because the mechanisms causing "overflow" and "breakdown", "total collapse", even if it's just for the sake of reducing subsequent damage, are balanced by their biochemical counterparts and, again, higher storage capacities for pretty much everything body and brain produce while generating, transforming, exerting energy and all the exhaust ...