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A cynic in me would say that means that the new affordable Polo (~30k€) will be 10k more expensive that the current Polo (ca 20k)... On a more serious note tho

A cynic in me would say that means that the new affordable Polo (~30k€) will be 10k more expensive that the current Polo (ca 20k)... On a more serious note though, Western car manufacturers used Covid for a massive price hike (30%?) arguing they have to do it because of parts scarcity, but once supply got to normal levels they refused to bring the prices back to the previous (or similar) price point so now they will be killed one by one by Chinese car manufacturers who - also mostly supported by their state - keep pre-Covid pricing.

eptcyka 1y ago
Prices never go down. Neither central banks nor business owners want deflation, do mountains will be moved to avoid it.
FridayoLeary 1y ago
I don't think they care. They are chasing the higher profit margins that come with selling "premium" models and sacrificing the budget market to the chinese. Another point about the id range; they rushed it out with half baked software and UX. They probably resolved most of this but it's disturbing that they would do it in the first place. Finally how much cheaper is electricity? Since 2020 the prices have more then doubled and the prices of charging in service stations are huge. I'm not sure that in the future private vehicles will be affordable as they are today.
- dotcoma 1y ago
  > I'm not sure that in the future private vehicles will be affordable as they are today. That’s a good thing, if you ask me.
  - darkwater 1y ago
    Not in the way you think. We are going to keep the same, but older, ICE fleet running for many more years, unfortunately.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Yep this. The EU is one of the champions on regulatory self-owns/own-goals like these by pushing legislation that sounds good on the surface without too much though, but ends up having worse send and third order effects. Examples like: Giving preference to diesel vehicles because they produced less C02 than gasoline cars, while ignoring the much worse NOx and particulate for human respiratory heath that diesel engines produce(possible lobby from EU car brands involved). Denuclearization, because nuclear is scary and dangerous, that pushed energy prices up and use of coal which killed more people via respiratory issues than Chernobyl and Fukushima (possible lobby from Russian oil and gas involved) Banning ICE cars prematurely before the market, charging infrastructure and consumer demand can catch up on its own, will have similar negative effects.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Good only if public transport gets significantly more coverage end frequency, otherwise more working class people get financially wrecked. Not everyone lives in Amsterdam, Vienna, Berlin or London to not need a car.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      Something for everyone to work on... Even if you love driving eventually you will get old and be unable to drive safely.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >Something for everyone to work on And who do you think is gonna work on that? Because politicians aren't gonna start building trains for you where you live, so you're left to fix your own situation by driving a car to work since your boss isn't gonna move his company where you live so you can walk/bike there. >Even if you love driving eventually you will get old and be unable to drive safely. Where do you see me saying anything about liking driving? I also don't like brushing my teeth but I still do it because it's a necessity just like driving is for a lot of people in smaller and highly spread out cities where frequent subways/trains are not a thing. Sure, we can all try to move to big cities with top public transport where you don't need a car, but those cities already have a housing shortage and it's only gonna get worse.
        bluGill 1y ago
        Politicians do what they think voters want them to do. Thus talk to your neighbors about this and point out that they could have good transit service (if you live in the US you might be the only neighborhood in your state, but you can point to other countries). Write letters to your politicians. Attend community meetings. Make sure you build bridges with conservatives - there are many conservatives pro transit messages but nobody knows them. Be careful about bridges with liberals who don't care about transit except as a way to do something else they want (since this results in bad transit which gives those who are against transit another "it can't work here" project to point to). None of the above is easy.
  - weweersdfsd 1y ago
    Yes, what Western world really needs is more people moving to already unaffordable big cities, because they can't afford a commute from cheaper areas. Landlords would really love that.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
      If there only was a way that would allow people to live and work in a more affordable place, no matter where the company site actually is. Today it's still a matter of a power struggle between beehive-minded CEOs and employees, but if things get more tense, I believe a state intervention would be an excellent option.
- whynotmaybe 1y ago
  > they rushed it out with half baked software and UX. Are we back to the "wait for service pack" era ?
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    Sadly, yes, I think we are (or at least really close to it).
    - jq-r 1y ago
      No, in reality it's "buy a newer model of the same car" strategy. They don't really care about the current/old model.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  > They are chasing the higher profit margins that come with selling "premium" models and sacrificing the budget market to the chinese. Well, also, they've been increasingly pushing cheap stuff out of the VW brand over the last decade or so. I'd suspect that, when the dust settles, they'll have something around the 20k mark, but it'll be Skoda or SEAT, not VW. > Finally how much cheaper is electricity? Since 2020 the prices have more than doubled and the prices of charging in service stations are huge. This may be a regional-differences thing (in particular, I bet it differs at least in timing based on whether you're in a mostly-wind country or a mostly-solar country), but at least in Ireland you can sign up to an electricity plan that gives you electricity for like 8 cent/kWh at 02:00-04:00 (vs ~30c at peak times and ~15c at night); this is explicitly marketed at electric car users. Here's a fairly typical example; note that it actually has EV in the name (though it doesn't actually require one or anything). https://www.electricireland.ie/residential/electricity-and-gas/ev-night-boost https://www.electricireland.ie/residential/electricity-and-g...
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Unfortunately VW is the only brand of the above they bring to the US. On this side of the pond we don't get the option to buy those others. (unless you import it yourself, but you have to be rich to pay all the costs - last I heard you would have to import 10 for crash testing, and I don't know what else is needed)
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      Oh, right, yeah, are they even launching this in the US? AFAIK they did not launch the ID.3, their current cheapest VW-branded model, there.
octo888 1y ago
I remember when the Polo was about 12k EUR, about 15 years ago!
ofrzeta 1y ago
You just need to wait for the Skoda variant of this Polo, presumably e-Fabia or something.
lifestyleguru 1y ago
Polo is the new Golf, in terms of price and dimensions. No idea why they do this weird shift, they look even more confused than me.
- bluGill 1y ago
  It always was. The US Jetta was sold as the Polo in other countries. The Golf and the Jetta were the same platform/size other than the golf was a hatchback and the Jetta a sedan.
- atq2119 1y ago
  I suspect at least in part it is to move loyal customers into larger and more expensive segments over time. Let's say the first car you get is a Polo and you really like it, so your next one is a Polo as well. Over the decades, you're being moved to making more expensive car purchase. And to make up for that, a new smaller cheaper tier is introduced at some point. I don't care about cars enough to know when they introduced the Up, but it certainly didn't exist a few decades ago.
ZeroGravitas 1y ago
The ID. 3 has been starting from under 30K since a year ago year so you'd assume they'd pitch this below that as it's effectively the ID. 2 I'd also like discussions of car affordability to shift to TCO unless there's been an announcement of free fuel that I've missed.
- bluGill 1y ago
  > I'd also like discussions of car affordability to shift to TCO unless there's been an announcement of free fuel that I've missed. If you buy/lease new cars every 3 years - which the the typical market for new cars - the TCO is almost entirely based on the cost of the car. Insurance and taxes are based on the price and so there is a direct relation. Maintenance costs are nearly zero as oil changes are cheap and everything else is warranty. What is left is fuel and that is cheap (14000 miles per year at 25mpg with gas at $3/gallon works out to $140/month). If you buy used cars the economics are different, but you are not longer the direct target for new cars.
  - ZeroGravitas 1y ago
    A very quick glance at lease costs for the current ICE Polo vs the ID. 3 (so one step up the VW range from the expected ID.2/Polo) suggests monthly fuel cost differences could essentially close the gap in europe, so instant savings from day one are likely with the new ID.2/Polo that was considered to be too costly by (hypothetical) upfront sales price above.
jeroenhd 1y ago
Even with the price hikes, Volkswagen is having to close down factories, do mass layoffs, and apply pay cuts to keep factories running. American exports getting hit by trade wars also don't exactly help, while at the same time cheaper Chinese cars are taking over more and more of their local market. Volkswagen may not go bankrupt tomorrow, but it's hardly in a position to bring back pre-COVID prices. They were late to the electric car game which also didn't help with their market power.
- pshirshov 1y ago
  > while at the same time cheaper Chinese cars are taking over more and more of their local market. I'm wondering why can that be? Probably, because Chinese cars are cheaper? I'm curious what can motivate me to pay ~€60K for an European car instead of paying ~€30K for the same set of features? Chinese software is crap, but at least the power steering didn't stop working during the test drive, unlike my experience with VW.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
    > ~€60K for an European car instead of paying ~€30K for the same set of features? Fear and uncertainty mostly. We don't know how these cars will be in 5-10 years. Maybe they have some hidden faults that will come up en masse after certain time? And what about spare parts? These are the questions many buyers ask themselves. And after some thinking, no matter how you look at it, the 60k option is not beating the 30k one.

eptcyka 1y ago

Prices never go down. Neither central banks nor business owners want deflation, do mountains will be moved to avoid it.

FridayoLeary 1y ago

I don't think they care. They are chasing the higher profit margins that come with selling "premium" models and sacrificing the budget market to the chinese. Another point about the id range; they rushed it out with half baked software and UX. They probably resolved most of this but it's disturbing that they would do it in the first place. Finally how much cheaper is electricity? Since 2020 the prices have more then doubled and the prices of charging in service stations are huge. I'm not sure that in the future private vehicles will be affordable as they are today.

dotcoma 1y ago
> I'm not sure that in the future private vehicles will be affordable as they are today. That’s a good thing, if you ask me.
- darkwater 1y ago
  Not in the way you think. We are going to keep the same, but older, ICE fleet running for many more years, unfortunately.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Yep this. The EU is one of the champions on regulatory self-owns/own-goals like these by pushing legislation that sounds good on the surface without too much though, but ends up having worse send and third order effects. Examples like: Giving preference to diesel vehicles because they produced less C02 than gasoline cars, while ignoring the much worse NOx and particulate for human respiratory heath that diesel engines produce(possible lobby from EU car brands involved). Denuclearization, because nuclear is scary and dangerous, that pushed energy prices up and use of coal which killed more people via respiratory issues than Chernobyl and Fukushima (possible lobby from Russian oil and gas involved) Banning ICE cars prematurely before the market, charging infrastructure and consumer demand can catch up on its own, will have similar negative effects.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Good only if public transport gets significantly more coverage end frequency, otherwise more working class people get financially wrecked. Not everyone lives in Amsterdam, Vienna, Berlin or London to not need a car.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Something for everyone to work on... Even if you love driving eventually you will get old and be unable to drive safely.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >Something for everyone to work on And who do you think is gonna work on that? Because politicians aren't gonna start building trains for you where you live, so you're left to fix your own situation by driving a car to work since your boss isn't gonna move his company where you live so you can walk/bike there. >Even if you love driving eventually you will get old and be unable to drive safely. Where do you see me saying anything about liking driving? I also don't like brushing my teeth but I still do it because it's a necessity just like driving is for a lot of people in smaller and highly spread out cities where frequent subways/trains are not a thing. Sure, we can all try to move to big cities with top public transport where you don't need a car, but those cities already have a housing shortage and it's only gonna get worse.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        Politicians do what they think voters want them to do. Thus talk to your neighbors about this and point out that they could have good transit service (if you live in the US you might be the only neighborhood in your state, but you can point to other countries). Write letters to your politicians. Attend community meetings. Make sure you build bridges with conservatives - there are many conservatives pro transit messages but nobody knows them. Be careful about bridges with liberals who don't care about transit except as a way to do something else they want (since this results in bad transit which gives those who are against transit another "it can't work here" project to point to). None of the above is easy.
- weweersdfsd 1y ago
  Yes, what Western world really needs is more people moving to already unaffordable big cities, because they can't afford a commute from cheaper areas. Landlords would really love that.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
    If there only was a way that would allow people to live and work in a more affordable place, no matter where the company site actually is. Today it's still a matter of a power struggle between beehive-minded CEOs and employees, but if things get more tense, I believe a state intervention would be an excellent option.
whynotmaybe 1y ago
> they rushed it out with half baked software and UX. Are we back to the "wait for service pack" era ?
- alistairSH 1y ago
  Sadly, yes, I think we are (or at least really close to it).
  - jq-r 1y ago
    No, in reality it's "buy a newer model of the same car" strategy. They don't really care about the current/old model.
rsynnott 1y ago
> They are chasing the higher profit margins that come with selling "premium" models and sacrificing the budget market to the chinese. Well, also, they've been increasingly pushing cheap stuff out of the VW brand over the last decade or so. I'd suspect that, when the dust settles, they'll have something around the 20k mark, but it'll be Skoda or SEAT, not VW. > Finally how much cheaper is electricity? Since 2020 the prices have more than doubled and the prices of charging in service stations are huge. This may be a regional-differences thing (in particular, I bet it differs at least in timing based on whether you're in a mostly-wind country or a mostly-solar country), but at least in Ireland you can sign up to an electricity plan that gives you electricity for like 8 cent/kWh at 02:00-04:00 (vs ~30c at peak times and ~15c at night); this is explicitly marketed at electric car users. Here's a fairly typical example; note that it actually has EV in the name (though it doesn't actually require one or anything). https://www.electricireland.ie/residential/electricity-and-gas/ev-night-boost https://www.electricireland.ie/residential/electricity-and-g...
- bluGill 1y ago
  Unfortunately VW is the only brand of the above they bring to the US. On this side of the pond we don't get the option to buy those others. (unless you import it yourself, but you have to be rich to pay all the costs - last I heard you would have to import 10 for crash testing, and I don't know what else is needed)
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    Oh, right, yeah, are they even launching this in the US? AFAIK they did not launch the ID.3, their current cheapest VW-branded model, there.

octo888 1y ago

I remember when the Polo was about 12k EUR, about 15 years ago!

ofrzeta 1y ago

You just need to wait for the Skoda variant of this Polo, presumably e-Fabia or something.

lifestyleguru 1y ago

Polo is the new Golf, in terms of price and dimensions. No idea why they do this weird shift, they look even more confused than me.

bluGill 1y ago
It always was. The US Jetta was sold as the Polo in other countries. The Golf and the Jetta were the same platform/size other than the golf was a hatchback and the Jetta a sedan.
atq2119 1y ago
I suspect at least in part it is to move loyal customers into larger and more expensive segments over time. Let's say the first car you get is a Polo and you really like it, so your next one is a Polo as well. Over the decades, you're being moved to making more expensive car purchase. And to make up for that, a new smaller cheaper tier is introduced at some point. I don't care about cars enough to know when they introduced the Up, but it certainly didn't exist a few decades ago.

ZeroGravitas 1y ago

The ID. 3 has been starting from under 30K since a year ago year so you'd assume they'd pitch this below that as it's effectively the ID. 2 I'd also like discussions of car affordability to shift to TCO unless there's been an announcement of free fuel that I've missed.

bluGill 1y ago
> I'd also like discussions of car affordability to shift to TCO unless there's been an announcement of free fuel that I've missed. If you buy/lease new cars every 3 years - which the the typical market for new cars - the TCO is almost entirely based on the cost of the car. Insurance and taxes are based on the price and so there is a direct relation. Maintenance costs are nearly zero as oil changes are cheap and everything else is warranty. What is left is fuel and that is cheap (14000 miles per year at 25mpg with gas at $3/gallon works out to $140/month). If you buy used cars the economics are different, but you are not longer the direct target for new cars.
- ZeroGravitas 1y ago
  A very quick glance at lease costs for the current ICE Polo vs the ID. 3 (so one step up the VW range from the expected ID.2/Polo) suggests monthly fuel cost differences could essentially close the gap in europe, so instant savings from day one are likely with the new ID.2/Polo that was considered to be too costly by (hypothetical) upfront sales price above.

jeroenhd 1y ago

Even with the price hikes, Volkswagen is having to close down factories, do mass layoffs, and apply pay cuts to keep factories running. American exports getting hit by trade wars also don't exactly help, while at the same time cheaper Chinese cars are taking over more and more of their local market. Volkswagen may not go bankrupt tomorrow, but it's hardly in a position to bring back pre-COVID prices. They were late to the electric car game which also didn't help with their market power.

pshirshov 1y ago
> while at the same time cheaper Chinese cars are taking over more and more of their local market. I'm wondering why can that be? Probably, because Chinese cars are cheaper? I'm curious what can motivate me to pay ~€60K for an European car instead of paying ~€30K for the same set of features? Chinese software is crap, but at least the power steering didn't stop working during the test drive, unlike my experience with VW.
- dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
  > ~€60K for an European car instead of paying ~€30K for the same set of features? Fear and uncertainty mostly. We don't know how these cars will be in 5-10 years. Maybe they have some hidden faults that will come up en masse after certain time? And what about spare parts? These are the questions many buyers ask themselves. And after some thinking, no matter how you look at it, the 60k option is not beating the 30k one.