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The other issue is that someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant. So even the claimed

The other issue is that someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant. So even the claimed combatant numbers will include those from the cleansing department or local civilian police and many others in civilian and necessary jobs.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant To be fair, guilty-until-proven-innocent for card-carrying affiliates is deeply precedented during wartime. (Though I'm not sure how we'd classify e.g. a janitor on a military base, casualty-wise.) Jailing elderly single mothers who haven't been charged with a crime is not. It's important to distinguish between these because while both are horrible, one departs from the way the great powers have fought modern wars.
- NomDePlum 1y ago
  This is not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare, in that there is one overwhelming military power and they are choosing to enact widespread military action, including dropping megatons of explosives on a civilian population. So I'm can't see how your point about how great powers and modern warfare applies. The IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? There isn't really an actual war scale action other than on the Israeli side.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare Modern (i.e. post nuclear) war is always fought asymmetrically. And great powers constantly fight asymmetric wars. (Israel isn't a great power, but it is an emerging regional hegemon.) In this case, we have a proxy war between America and Israel, on one hand, and Iran and its proxies, on the other hand, with Gaza and to a lesser degree Yemen being the board's pawns. > IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? I genuinely can't figure out why anyone in this war is doing what they are doing. Hamas' winning move is to return the hostages--they're greater leverage for Netanyahu at this point than the villa-dwellers in Doha. Tel Aviv's winning move is to end hostilities with a tight security cordon around Gaza to prevent Iran from resupplying Hamas. Tehran's winning move is to offer dropping support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis if the Security Council agrees to (a) an independent Palestinian state and (b) dropping sanctions. (And, like, not bomb Australian Jews. Though Tehran's position makes the most sense, not because it's rational, but because Iranian hardliners gain domestic power when Iran is isolated. Sort of like Netanyahu.) The only folks without a winning line are America, the EU and the people of Palestine and Israel. That said, detaining a Hamas member is not indiscriminate. Even if the paperwork says they're a librarian, it's reasonable to act on hunches in wartime provided they're treated like POWs.
    - sporkxrocket 1y ago
      Hamas has offered to return the hostages many times and Israel refuses to stop the killing. Missing in your analysis is Israel’s primary goal: ethnically cleanse all of Palestine and enforce Jewish supremacy.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Hamas has offered to return the hostages many times and Israel refuses to stop the killing Offering and doing are different. Unilaterally returning the hostages is the winning move for Palestinians. It is not for Hamas’ leadership, however, so it won’t happen. > Missing in your analysis is Israel’s primary goal: ethnically cleanse all of Palestine and enforce Jewish supremacy This is like equating hard liners with Iran or Hamas with Palestine. There are elements in Israel who want this. There are elements without who are okay with it. Nobody is particularly motivated to intervene because the burden is purely moral—there isn’t a unique industry or diaspora for Palestinians to call on. Hamas and Likud benefit from the war continuing. (Their right wing elements are both exterminationist. They have been for years. Nothing new there.)
        linehedonist 1y ago
        Let's say Hamas returned the hostages. What would happen next? What makes that the "winning move?" My guess is that Netanyahu would say that the war can't end until "all the terrorists are dead" (impossible), and the Palestinians have given up the one bit of leverage that they have.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Let's say Hamas returned the hostages. What would happen next? The international terms of the debate would change. The domestic political situation in Israel would change. Netanyahu’s hand would be significantly weakened by losing hostages as a justification to his electorate and even the IDF. Hamas, however, would face pointed questions over why it didn’t recognise that the hostages were a liability sooner (I frankly question if they were ever an asset at all—Sinwar’s purpose, to draw in Iran, was a dud). If you want to get conspiratorial, consider that the one red line Netanyahu has respected is Hamas’ leadership’s security in Doha.
- sporkxrocket 1y ago
  Since every adult in Israel joins the IDF, that would make them valid targets then right?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Since every adult in Israel joins the IDF, that would make them valid targets then right? Iran launched into Israel, broadly, including targeting cities. Same as Russia in Ukraine. America in Iraq. Indian peacekeepers in Sri Lanka.
    - sporkxrocket 1y ago
      Iran made targeted strikes against military installations.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Iran made targeted strikes against military installations And civilian targets [1]. You didn’t hear about this because this category of war crime is happening in every currently-active war zone. If a population chooses war, this is essentially part of what they’re consenting to doing and potentially have happen to themselves. [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/09/04/iran-missile-strikes-on-israeli-civilians-likely-war-crimes https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/09/04/iran-missile-strikes-on-...
    - NomDePlum 1y ago
      The question asked, goes directly to your arguments rationale, but you've avoided it. Would it not be better to be consistent in your position, or reconsider it?
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Would it not be better to be consistent in your position, or reconsider it? Didn’t mean to deflect. Current and former IDF members as well as reservists are absolutely valid military targets. As for detention, absolutely, an Israeli citizen in Iranian or proxy territory should expect to be detained. (They would not be valid military targets.)
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant To be fair, guilty-until-proven-innocent for card-carrying affiliates is deeply precedented during wartime. (Though I'm not sure how we'd classify e.g. a janitor on a military base, casualty-wise.) Jailing elderly single mothers who haven't been charged with a crime is not. It's important to distinguish between these because while both are horrible, one departs from the way the great powers have fought modern wars.

NomDePlum 1y ago
This is not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare, in that there is one overwhelming military power and they are choosing to enact widespread military action, including dropping megatons of explosives on a civilian population. So I'm can't see how your point about how great powers and modern warfare applies. The IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? There isn't really an actual war scale action other than on the Israeli side.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare Modern (i.e. post nuclear) war is always fought asymmetrically. And great powers constantly fight asymmetric wars. (Israel isn't a great power, but it is an emerging regional hegemon.) In this case, we have a proxy war between America and Israel, on one hand, and Iran and its proxies, on the other hand, with Gaza and to a lesser degree Yemen being the board's pawns. > IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? I genuinely can't figure out why anyone in this war is doing what they are doing. Hamas' winning move is to return the hostages--they're greater leverage for Netanyahu at this point than the villa-dwellers in Doha. Tel Aviv's winning move is to end hostilities with a tight security cordon around Gaza to prevent Iran from resupplying Hamas. Tehran's winning move is to offer dropping support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis if the Security Council agrees to (a) an independent Palestinian state and (b) dropping sanctions. (And, like, not bomb Australian Jews. Though Tehran's position makes the most sense, not because it's rational, but because Iranian hardliners gain domestic power when Iran is isolated. Sort of like Netanyahu.) The only folks without a winning line are America, the EU and the people of Palestine and Israel. That said, detaining a Hamas member is not indiscriminate. Even if the paperwork says they're a librarian, it's reasonable to act on hunches in wartime provided they're treated like POWs.
  - sporkxrocket 1y ago
    Hamas has offered to return the hostages many times and Israel refuses to stop the killing. Missing in your analysis is Israel’s primary goal: ethnically cleanse all of Palestine and enforce Jewish supremacy.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Hamas has offered to return the hostages many times and Israel refuses to stop the killing Offering and doing are different. Unilaterally returning the hostages is the winning move for Palestinians. It is not for Hamas’ leadership, however, so it won’t happen. > Missing in your analysis is Israel’s primary goal: ethnically cleanse all of Palestine and enforce Jewish supremacy This is like equating hard liners with Iran or Hamas with Palestine. There are elements in Israel who want this. There are elements without who are okay with it. Nobody is particularly motivated to intervene because the burden is purely moral—there isn’t a unique industry or diaspora for Palestinians to call on. Hamas and Likud benefit from the war continuing. (Their right wing elements are both exterminationist. They have been for years. Nothing new there.)
      - linehedonist 1y ago
        Let's say Hamas returned the hostages. What would happen next? What makes that the "winning move?" My guess is that Netanyahu would say that the war can't end until "all the terrorists are dead" (impossible), and the Palestinians have given up the one bit of leverage that they have.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Let's say Hamas returned the hostages. What would happen next? The international terms of the debate would change. The domestic political situation in Israel would change. Netanyahu’s hand would be significantly weakened by losing hostages as a justification to his electorate and even the IDF. Hamas, however, would face pointed questions over why it didn’t recognise that the hostages were a liability sooner (I frankly question if they were ever an asset at all—Sinwar’s purpose, to draw in Iran, was a dud). If you want to get conspiratorial, consider that the one red line Netanyahu has respected is Hamas’ leadership’s security in Doha.
sporkxrocket 1y ago
Since every adult in Israel joins the IDF, that would make them valid targets then right?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Since every adult in Israel joins the IDF, that would make them valid targets then right? Iran launched into Israel, broadly, including targeting cities. Same as Russia in Ukraine. America in Iraq. Indian peacekeepers in Sri Lanka.
  - sporkxrocket 1y ago
    Iran made targeted strikes against military installations.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Iran made targeted strikes against military installations And civilian targets [1]. You didn’t hear about this because this category of war crime is happening in every currently-active war zone. If a population chooses war, this is essentially part of what they’re consenting to doing and potentially have happen to themselves. [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/09/04/iran-missile-strikes-on-israeli-civilians-likely-war-crimes https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/09/04/iran-missile-strikes-on-...
  - NomDePlum 1y ago
    The question asked, goes directly to your arguments rationale, but you've avoided it. Would it not be better to be consistent in your position, or reconsider it?
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Would it not be better to be consistent in your position, or reconsider it? Didn’t mean to deflect. Current and former IDF members as well as reservists are absolutely valid military targets. As for detention, absolutely, an Israeli citizen in Iranian or proxy territory should expect to be detained. (They would not be valid military targets.)

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]