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Israeli military database show only a quarter of Gaza detainees are fighters

23 points by hebelehubele 1y ago

hebelehubele 1y ago
> Among the most egregious cases are those of an 82-year-old woman with Alzheimer’s jailed for six weeks and of a single mother separated from her young children. When the mother was released after 53 days she found the children begging on the streets. > At that point in May Israel had detained 6,000 people under its “unlawful combatants” legislation, which allows indefinite imprisonment without charge or trial, official data released after legal appeals showed. > “I remember [the 82-yo woman with Alzheimer's] limping badly toward the clinic. And she’s classified as an unlawful combatant. The way that label is used is insane,” the medic said. Photographs confirm his presence at Anatot at the time. The indefinite detention under dubious justifications without charge or trial. Such a profound violation of human rights and dignity, but it's OK, because they're "animals".
- NomDePlum 1y ago
  The other issue is that someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant. So even the claimed combatant numbers will include those from the cleansing department or local civilian police and many others in civilian and necessary jobs.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant To be fair, guilty-until-proven-innocent for card-carrying affiliates is deeply precedented during wartime. (Though I'm not sure how we'd classify e.g. a janitor on a military base, casualty-wise.) Jailing elderly single mothers who haven't been charged with a crime is not. It's important to distinguish between these because while both are horrible, one departs from the way the great powers have fought modern wars.
    - NomDePlum 1y ago
      This is not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare, in that there is one overwhelming military power and they are choosing to enact widespread military action, including dropping megatons of explosives on a civilian population. So I'm can't see how your point about how great powers and modern warfare applies. The IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? There isn't really an actual war scale action other than on the Israeli side.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare Modern (i.e. post nuclear) war is always fought asymmetrically. And great powers constantly fight asymmetric wars. (Israel isn't a great power, but it is an emerging regional hegemon.) In this case, we have a proxy war between America and Israel, on one hand, and Iran and its proxies, on the other hand, with Gaza and to a lesser degree Yemen being the board's pawns. > IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? I genuinely can't figure out why anyone in this war is doing what they are doing. Hamas' winning move is to return the hostages--they're greater leverage for Netanyahu at this point than the villa-dwellers in Doha. Tel Aviv's winning move is to end hostilities with a tight security cordon around Gaza to prevent Iran from resupplying Hamas. Tehran's winning move is to offer dropping support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis if the Security Council agrees to (a) an independent Palestinian state and (b) dropping sanctions. (And, like, not bomb Australian Jews. Though Tehran's position makes the most sense, not because it's rational, but because Iranian hardliners gain domestic power when Iran is isolated. Sort of like Netanyahu.) The only folks without a winning line are America, the EU and the people of Palestine and Israel. That said, detaining a Hamas member is not indiscriminate. Even if the paperwork says they're a librarian, it's reasonable to act on hunches in wartime provided they're treated like POWs.
        sporkxrocket 1y ago
        Hamas has offered to return the hostages many times and Israel refuses to stop the killing. Missing in your analysis is Israel’s primary goal: ethnically cleanse all of Palestine and enforce Jewish supremacy.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
jfengel 1y ago
I'm actually kind of surprised it's that high. That's what asymmetric warfare means: you can't tell the fighters from the civilians. If Hamas put on uniforms, the number would be much higher. The war would also have ended a long time ago -- and not in their favor. That does not excuse Israel's own war crimes, which are indeed egregious. Israel has obligations, both moral and under treaty, that it is violating. But I think it's important to consider the framing of this article. The implication is that Israel detaining exclusively "fighters" is easy, but in fact it's not possible. I'd love to see a convention on asymmetric warfare, parallel to the Geneva Conventions. What are the obligations of a first-world country fighting a much smaller force who is not bound by the existing conventions? Obviously more than Israel is engaging, but I don't think most people would agree to fight solely along Geneva Convention lines, either, when faced with such an opponent.
- sporkxrocket 1y ago
  Israel would still be committing genocide regardless of how the resistance dresses. They’re literally ethnically cleansing the West Bank and that has nothing to do with Hamas. They ethically cleansed all of Palestine during the Nakba and Hamas didn’t exist for another 50 years.
  - jfengel 1y ago
    Hamas is carrying on the activities of the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The PLO renounced those tactics and is now (more or less) successfully running the West Bank as the Palestinian Authority. Which Israel is screwing up by building more and more settlements, making a two-state solution impossible. It isn't ethnic cleansing, but it is certainly a bad idea and probably a crime.
    - sporkxrocket 1y ago
      Israel is annexing the West Bank so it's safe to say the PLO made the wrong call. It's 100% ethnic cleansing. That's all Israel is, ethnically cleansed Palestine, since Nakba.

23 points by hebelehubele 1y ago

> Among the most egregious cases are those of an 82-year-old woman with Alzheimer’s jailed for six weeks and of a single mother separated from her young children. When the mother was released after 53 days she found the children begging on the streets. > At that point in May Israel had detained 6,000 people under its “unlawful combatants” legislation, which allows indefinite imprisonment without charge or trial, official data released after legal appeals showed. > “I remember [the 82-yo woman with Alzheimer's] limping badly toward the clinic. And she’s classified as an unlawful combatant. The way that label is used is insane,” the medic said. Photographs confirm his presence at Anatot at the time. The indefinite detention under dubious justifications without charge or trial. Such a profound violation of human rights and dignity, but it's OK, because they're "animals".

NomDePlum 1y ago
The other issue is that someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant. So even the claimed combatant numbers will include those from the cleansing department or local civilian police and many others in civilian and necessary jobs.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > someone working for the local government (Hamas) in 2023 or after, is often treated by the IDF as being a combatant To be fair, guilty-until-proven-innocent for card-carrying affiliates is deeply precedented during wartime. (Though I'm not sure how we'd classify e.g. a janitor on a military base, casualty-wise.) Jailing elderly single mothers who haven't been charged with a crime is not. It's important to distinguish between these because while both are horrible, one departs from the way the great powers have fought modern wars.
  - NomDePlum 1y ago
    This is not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare, in that there is one overwhelming military power and they are choosing to enact widespread military action, including dropping megatons of explosives on a civilian population. So I'm can't see how your point about how great powers and modern warfare applies. The IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? There isn't really an actual war scale action other than on the Israeli side.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > not a modern war though. It's asymmetric warfare Modern (i.e. post nuclear) war is always fought asymmetrically. And great powers constantly fight asymmetric wars. (Israel isn't a great power, but it is an emerging regional hegemon.) In this case, we have a proxy war between America and Israel, on one hand, and Iran and its proxies, on the other hand, with Gaza and to a lesser degree Yemen being the board's pawns. > IDF and contractors are just enacting methodical slaughter and starvation techniques in an indiscriminate manner surely? I genuinely can't figure out why anyone in this war is doing what they are doing. Hamas' winning move is to return the hostages--they're greater leverage for Netanyahu at this point than the villa-dwellers in Doha. Tel Aviv's winning move is to end hostilities with a tight security cordon around Gaza to prevent Iran from resupplying Hamas. Tehran's winning move is to offer dropping support for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis if the Security Council agrees to (a) an independent Palestinian state and (b) dropping sanctions. (And, like, not bomb Australian Jews. Though Tehran's position makes the most sense, not because it's rational, but because Iranian hardliners gain domestic power when Iran is isolated. Sort of like Netanyahu.) The only folks without a winning line are America, the EU and the people of Palestine and Israel. That said, detaining a Hamas member is not indiscriminate. Even if the paperwork says they're a librarian, it's reasonable to act on hunches in wartime provided they're treated like POWs.
      - sporkxrocket 1y ago
        Hamas has offered to return the hostages many times and Israel refuses to stop the killing. Missing in your analysis is Israel’s primary goal: ethnically cleanse all of Palestine and enforce Jewish supremacy.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

jfengel 1y ago

I'm actually kind of surprised it's that high. That's what asymmetric warfare means: you can't tell the fighters from the civilians. If Hamas put on uniforms, the number would be much higher. The war would also have ended a long time ago -- and not in their favor. That does not excuse Israel's own war crimes, which are indeed egregious. Israel has obligations, both moral and under treaty, that it is violating. But I think it's important to consider the framing of this article. The implication is that Israel detaining exclusively "fighters" is easy, but in fact it's not possible. I'd love to see a convention on asymmetric warfare, parallel to the Geneva Conventions. What are the obligations of a first-world country fighting a much smaller force who is not bound by the existing conventions? Obviously more than Israel is engaging, but I don't think most people would agree to fight solely along Geneva Convention lines, either, when faced with such an opponent.

sporkxrocket 1y ago
Israel would still be committing genocide regardless of how the resistance dresses. They’re literally ethnically cleansing the West Bank and that has nothing to do with Hamas. They ethically cleansed all of Palestine during the Nakba and Hamas didn’t exist for another 50 years.
- jfengel 1y ago
  Hamas is carrying on the activities of the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The PLO renounced those tactics and is now (more or less) successfully running the West Bank as the Palestinian Authority. Which Israel is screwing up by building more and more settlements, making a two-state solution impossible. It isn't ethnic cleansing, but it is certainly a bad idea and probably a crime.
  - sporkxrocket 1y ago
    Israel is annexing the West Bank so it's safe to say the PLO made the wrong call. It's 100% ethnic cleansing. That's all Israel is, ethnically cleansed Palestine, since Nakba.