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Consciousness is awareness of yourself, and then the ability to look at yourself and decide to make a change. Someone conscious is able to choose how they want

by ars 1y ago

Consciousness is awareness of yourself, and then the ability to look at yourself and decide to make a change. Someone conscious is able to choose how they want to behave and then behave that way. For example I can choose to be kind or mean. I can choose to learn to skate or I choose not to. So free will and consciousness are strongly linked. I have seen zero evidence that any other being other than humans can do this. All other animals have behaviors that are directly shaped by their environment, physical needs, and genetic temperament, and not at all shaped by choices. For example a dog that likes to play with children simply likes them, it did not choose to like them. I on the other hand can sit, think, and decide if I like kids or not. (This does not imply that all choices made by humans are conscious - in fact most are not, it just means that humans can do that.)

goopypoop 1y ago
Some animals show choices - see e.g. the mirror test. On the other hand, I bet you can't prove that you ever made a free choice.
- ars 1y ago
  You are simultaneously claiming you can prove an animal made a choice, but I didn't? That's a contradiction. In any case, a mirror test is a test of recognizing self, it does not indicate anything in terms of self awareness. And I chose to fast for 5 days because I wanted to. Nothing forced me, it was a free choice. I simply thought about it and decided to do it, there were no pro's or con's pushing me in either direction.
  - scott_w 1y ago
    > Some animals show choices They said animals show choices, they did not claim to prove animals made a choice. The point is that you also cannot prove you made a choice, only that you do things that show you may have made a choice. It's a fine, but important, distinction.
    - ars 1y ago
      Did I, or did I not, have the option to fast, or not to fast? Did I then pick one? How is that not proof of a choice? Who or what else made that choice if not me? If you poke me with a needle, I move, that is not a choice because it's a forced choice, that's essentially what animals do, all their choices are forced. That's also what free will is, free will is not a choice between a good and bad options - that's not a choice. Free will is picking between two options that are equal, and yet different (i.e. not something where before options are more or less the same, like go left or right more or less randomly). Free will is only rarely exercised in life, most choices are forced or random. > They said animals show choices Given what I wrote, do they actually show choices? Or do they just pick between good/bad or two equal options?
      - backscratches 1y ago
        Whether you had the option to fast or not and made a choice to fast is up for debate. The leading hypothesis point to no: you did not have an option and you did not make a choice. Some time ago you heard about fasting (you did not invent fasting) and the situation in your life became such that fasting was what you naturally were compelled to do (stress, digestion, you know better than I that you did not simply decide to fast free of any influence). Your "free will" is probably a fairy tale you tell yourself to feel better about your automaton existence.
      - scott_w 1y ago
        > Did I, or did I not, have the option to fast, or not to fast? It looks like you had an option but it’s not possible to truly know whether you had an option. I’m not in your head so I can’t know. If, under the same circumstances and same state of mind, you perform the same action 100% of the time, did you really make a choice? Or did you just follow your programming?
rcxdude 1y ago
I don't think this matches which most people's definition of consciousness. The ability to decide rarely enters into such conversations.
- ars 1y ago
  If you can't do anything with your self awareness it's equivalent to not having it. What's the distinction between knowing I exist, but all my actions are pre-programmed vs not knowing I exist? You're essentially describing a detached observer, who watches their own body do stuff without influencing it. The whole point of being conscious is being aware of yourself, and then using that awareness to direct your actions. I had no idea people even had another definition, I can't figure out how else you could even define it.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago
    > The whole point of being conscious is being aware of yourself, and then using that awareness to direct your actions. Well, 1) You are making the massive, and quite likely incorrect, assumption that consciousness evolved by itself for a purpose - that it does have a "point". It may well be that consciousness - ability to self-observe - is just a natural side effect of having a capable bird- or mammal-like brain, and talking about the "point" of consciousness therefore makes no sense. It'd be like asking what is the functional point of a saucepan making a noise when you hit it. 2) Notwithstanding 1), being self-aware (having cognitive access to your internal thoughts) does have a value, in that it allows your brain to then utilize it's cognitive abilities to make better decisions ("should I walk across that frozen pond, or maybe better not?"), but this bringing-to-bear of learned experience to make better decisions is still a 100% mechanical process. Your brain is making a "decision" (i.e. predicting a motor cortex output that may make you move or do something), but this isn't "free will" - it's just the survival benefit of a brain evolved to predict. You as an organism in the environment may be seen by an outside observer to be making smart "decisions", but these decisions aren't some mystical "free will" but rather just a highly evolved organism making good use of past experience to survive.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago

by ars 1y ago

goopypoop 1y ago

Some animals show choices - see e.g. the mirror test. On the other hand, I bet you can't prove that you ever made a free choice.

ars 1y ago
You are simultaneously claiming you can prove an animal made a choice, but I didn't? That's a contradiction. In any case, a mirror test is a test of recognizing self, it does not indicate anything in terms of self awareness. And I chose to fast for 5 days because I wanted to. Nothing forced me, it was a free choice. I simply thought about it and decided to do it, there were no pro's or con's pushing me in either direction.
- scott_w 1y ago
  > Some animals show choices They said animals show choices, they did not claim to prove animals made a choice. The point is that you also cannot prove you made a choice, only that you do things that show you may have made a choice. It's a fine, but important, distinction.
  - ars 1y ago
    Did I, or did I not, have the option to fast, or not to fast? Did I then pick one? How is that not proof of a choice? Who or what else made that choice if not me? If you poke me with a needle, I move, that is not a choice because it's a forced choice, that's essentially what animals do, all their choices are forced. That's also what free will is, free will is not a choice between a good and bad options - that's not a choice. Free will is picking between two options that are equal, and yet different (i.e. not something where before options are more or less the same, like go left or right more or less randomly). Free will is only rarely exercised in life, most choices are forced or random. > They said animals show choices Given what I wrote, do they actually show choices? Or do they just pick between good/bad or two equal options?
    - backscratches 1y ago
      Whether you had the option to fast or not and made a choice to fast is up for debate. The leading hypothesis point to no: you did not have an option and you did not make a choice. Some time ago you heard about fasting (you did not invent fasting) and the situation in your life became such that fasting was what you naturally were compelled to do (stress, digestion, you know better than I that you did not simply decide to fast free of any influence). Your "free will" is probably a fairy tale you tell yourself to feel better about your automaton existence.
    - scott_w 1y ago
      > Did I, or did I not, have the option to fast, or not to fast? It looks like you had an option but it’s not possible to truly know whether you had an option. I’m not in your head so I can’t know. If, under the same circumstances and same state of mind, you perform the same action 100% of the time, did you really make a choice? Or did you just follow your programming?

rcxdude 1y ago

I don't think this matches which most people's definition of consciousness. The ability to decide rarely enters into such conversations.

ars 1y ago
If you can't do anything with your self awareness it's equivalent to not having it. What's the distinction between knowing I exist, but all my actions are pre-programmed vs not knowing I exist? You're essentially describing a detached observer, who watches their own body do stuff without influencing it. The whole point of being conscious is being aware of yourself, and then using that awareness to direct your actions. I had no idea people even had another definition, I can't figure out how else you could even define it.
- HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago
  > The whole point of being conscious is being aware of yourself, and then using that awareness to direct your actions. Well, 1) You are making the massive, and quite likely incorrect, assumption that consciousness evolved by itself for a purpose - that it does have a "point". It may well be that consciousness - ability to self-observe - is just a natural side effect of having a capable bird- or mammal-like brain, and talking about the "point" of consciousness therefore makes no sense. It'd be like asking what is the functional point of a saucepan making a noise when you hit it. 2) Notwithstanding 1), being self-aware (having cognitive access to your internal thoughts) does have a value, in that it allows your brain to then utilize it's cognitive abilities to make better decisions ("should I walk across that frozen pond, or maybe better not?"), but this bringing-to-bear of learned experience to make better decisions is still a 100% mechanical process. Your brain is making a "decision" (i.e. predicting a motor cortex output that may make you move or do something), but this isn't "free will" - it's just the survival benefit of a brain evolved to predict. You as an organism in the environment may be seen by an outside observer to be making smart "decisions", but these decisions aren't some mystical "free will" but rather just a highly evolved organism making good use of past experience to survive.
- HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago