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I got irritated with the profusion of "no cash accepted" signs a few years back and started making a point of always carrying cash, to use whenever practical. I

I got irritated with the profusion of "no cash accepted" signs a few years back and started making a point of always carrying cash, to use whenever practical. I don't take it to an extreme, but I also don't want to live in a world where every transaction is trackable and all commerce is regulated by Visa, Mastercard, Apple, or Google.

rolph 1y ago
i think anyone seeing very many piles of merchandise abandoned at checkout would be wise to review such decisions. it would definately be a failure to consider area demographic
- bruce511 1y ago
  Yes, I'm sure it varies by area. But from a business point if view, cash is super expensive to deal with. As a side-effect of an acquisition we inherited a small number of customers that paid in cash. Turns out it's expensive to bank that cash, it's a security risk, it's a risk to the person transporting it and so on. In the general case, if most sales are already by card, the marginal gains of cash transactions are consumed by the cost of dealing with the cash. I'm not saying stores should be cashless, but it's worth understanding that accepting cash is very much "not free".
  - al_borland 1y ago
    How does that cost of accepting cash compare to the interchange fees? I’ve heard business owners say interchange fees were their single largest expense after payroll. I’ve also gotten discounts on large purchases for paying “cash” (check). They effectively deducted the interchange fee from my bill. If cash was so expensive to process, they wouldn’t be doing this.
    - bruce511 1y ago
      Again it'll vary by area. For us the cash was a lot more expensive. (Banks charge to deposit cash, and many of our bank branches don't accept cash anyway, so we have to go a bit further.) Fortunately it was little enough that we didn't need a cash-transit vehicle, and it didn't affect our insurance. Yes, I expect some merchants offer a cash discount, and that can add up for large purchases. But I'd prefer not to be carrying large amounts of cash. (We haven't had checks here for probably 15 years or so.) We have a very efficient (and cheap) direct deposit system though, so I can pay via my phone straight from my bank app for a very nominal flat fee. So for large transactions that's akin to a cash discount.
    - cperciva 1y ago
      The Bank of Canada did a report about this a few years back, and found that cash was the cheapest payment form for merchants to handle for transactions of up to $6 while debit cards were cheaper above that point; credit cards of course were never the best option for merchants. https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2017/03/staff-discussion-paper-2017-4/ https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2017/03/staff-discussion-paper-2...
  - singpolyma3 1y ago
    For sure. Taking cash is basically a marketing expense not an actual way to get paid.
    - account42 1y ago
      Which is of course why no store was profitable before the invention of cashless payments.
      - singpolyma3 1y ago
        At that time the amount of cash you got was obviously much higher, so the costs of handling it as a percentage were lower. You also wanted cash on hand at the time for obvious reasons (all your expenses were in cash) so having it coming in was inherently useful.
lvspiff 1y ago
In right there with you. I live in a small town and so whenever spending money at a local small business I try as much as possible to use cash. The shopkeeps who are also the owners are so appreciative as it's essentially a 5-7% "tip". It's difficult for them to keep good change though as people who do spend cash are either $20 or $100 bills which for a few $5-10 items consumes the small bills pretty fast. But in a no sales tax state so makes giving change easier (no coins)
- doubled112 1y ago
  > It's difficult for them to keep good change I've felt this struggle from the other side working at a gas station attendant. We were only allowed to have $100 before the till made us dump it. Can you break this $100 bill? Maybe if you pump another $50 in fuel, unless you want this roll of quarters too.
- gruez 1y ago
  >The shopkeeps who are also the owners are so appreciative as it's essentially a 5-7% "tip". Because tax evasion? Otherwise credit card interchange rates are nowhere that high, typically 3%.
  - manwe150 1y ago
    Square is 2.6% + 15¢, so to get 5-7%, you could be doing most transactions under $5. That seems to require fairly high sales volume to make any decent wage though, so there is an added transaction cost for them to “keep good change” instead of serving more customers
    - basch 1y ago
      Cash costs as much or more to handle. Potentially ranging from 4.7% to over 15%, costs include labor for counting change, closing drawers, preparing deposits, security expenses like armored transport, bank fees for cash services, insuring against significant risks of theft and fraud.
__MatrixMan__ 1y ago
I have similar concerns, but I think it's the payment conglomerates you have to worry about. Visa knows how much you spent, Fiserv knows what you bought.
- lmz 1y ago
  Sometimes Visa also knows what you buy: https://www.marqeta.com/blog/data-details-what-is-level-1-2-and-3-data https://www.marqeta.com/blog/data-details-what-is-level-1-2-...
- account42 1y ago
  It's not just Fiserv, there are often others involved as well. Even the merchant gets more data as they now have a fairly good way to identify you and correlate transactions.
  - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
    Sure but that's only going to be among transactions that you made with that merchant.
ekianjo 1y ago
> profusion of "no cash accepted" signs How this is even legal baffles me
- schaefer 1y ago
  As I understand it, the argument is: cash is valid payment for all debts public or private. But a sale isn’t a debt. The business that refuses your cash sale is refusing your business at the time of sale.
  - manwe150 1y ago
    Apparently that explanation is even an FAQ on the fed website: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  NYC outlawed cashless operations after it started to become popular and the marginalized were increasingly locked out of everyday commerce. Hopefully it catches on in the rest of the US.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    I didn't know this. Thanks for the tip. https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/Prohibition-of-Cashless-Establishments.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/Prohibition-of-Cashle... You can even report establishments for refusing cash by category: https://portal.311.nyc.gov/article/?kanumber=KA-03302 https://portal.311.nyc.gov/article/?kanumber=KA-03302
r0m4n0 1y ago
I think this writer focuses on the buyer side but on the merchant side, there are similar tradeoffs. People (employees, robbers etc) steal cash and it adds work to close out registers at the end of your day. Having no cash in your store solves those problems. I run a non profit with membership dues and I have tried to just boot the 3% of our membership that pay w/ check or cash annually (I haven’t convinced the rest of the board so we haven’t done it yet). It takes so much extra time to follow it in real life, receive checks in the mail, and effort to deposit in the bank. It’s just not worth the time
- snypher 1y ago
  Pretty scummy way to reject the people you rely on to fund your cause. Do you get paid from this non-profit you run?
  - Robelius 1y ago
    What’s scummy about this? Seems like the poster was giving a perspective where they are trying to maximize outcomes of the non-profit rather than maximize dollars raised.
    - wrp 1y ago
      It depends on the nature of the non-profit. If membership confers some benefit, then it would be deliberately denying that benefit to the class of people who can only pay by cash or check. That would be scummy.
  - r0m4n0 1y ago
    No, I donate a lot of money on top of the time I volunteer for free. Someone has to spend maybe an hour every few months to deposit a single check for $50. You got me on the rejection part because there are some benefits the members get (being able to attend social events, newsletters, etc) but if your donation is a net negative on an organization, I just don’t think they should donate at all. They don’t know it’s a net negative though and maybe would donate with an electronic payment but possibly don’t know? I think it’s mostly old people doing things the way they are used to But TBH I’m not sure if much of this matters other than the ratio. Time is money and if there aren’t enough people utilizing something, it’s just not worth it to continue. If it’s a government org that’s possibly the only thing that needs to accept all forms of payment
Wistar 1y ago
I always carry cash. Just tonight, I saw that the local sandwich shop that I frequent put up a NO CASH ACCEPTED sign. I asked why the change and the worker said it is due to employee theft. I asked if the tip jar still accepted cash. “Yes,” he said.

rolph 1y ago

i think anyone seeing very many piles of merchandise abandoned at checkout would be wise to review such decisions. it would definately be a failure to consider area demographic

bruce511 1y ago
Yes, I'm sure it varies by area. But from a business point if view, cash is super expensive to deal with. As a side-effect of an acquisition we inherited a small number of customers that paid in cash. Turns out it's expensive to bank that cash, it's a security risk, it's a risk to the person transporting it and so on. In the general case, if most sales are already by card, the marginal gains of cash transactions are consumed by the cost of dealing with the cash. I'm not saying stores should be cashless, but it's worth understanding that accepting cash is very much "not free".
- al_borland 1y ago
  How does that cost of accepting cash compare to the interchange fees? I’ve heard business owners say interchange fees were their single largest expense after payroll. I’ve also gotten discounts on large purchases for paying “cash” (check). They effectively deducted the interchange fee from my bill. If cash was so expensive to process, they wouldn’t be doing this.
  - bruce511 1y ago
    Again it'll vary by area. For us the cash was a lot more expensive. (Banks charge to deposit cash, and many of our bank branches don't accept cash anyway, so we have to go a bit further.) Fortunately it was little enough that we didn't need a cash-transit vehicle, and it didn't affect our insurance. Yes, I expect some merchants offer a cash discount, and that can add up for large purchases. But I'd prefer not to be carrying large amounts of cash. (We haven't had checks here for probably 15 years or so.) We have a very efficient (and cheap) direct deposit system though, so I can pay via my phone straight from my bank app for a very nominal flat fee. So for large transactions that's akin to a cash discount.
  - cperciva 1y ago
    The Bank of Canada did a report about this a few years back, and found that cash was the cheapest payment form for merchants to handle for transactions of up to $6 while debit cards were cheaper above that point; credit cards of course were never the best option for merchants. https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2017/03/staff-discussion-paper-2017-4/ https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2017/03/staff-discussion-paper-2...
- singpolyma3 1y ago
  For sure. Taking cash is basically a marketing expense not an actual way to get paid.
  - account42 1y ago
    Which is of course why no store was profitable before the invention of cashless payments.
    - singpolyma3 1y ago
      At that time the amount of cash you got was obviously much higher, so the costs of handling it as a percentage were lower. You also wanted cash on hand at the time for obvious reasons (all your expenses were in cash) so having it coming in was inherently useful.

lvspiff 1y ago

In right there with you. I live in a small town and so whenever spending money at a local small business I try as much as possible to use cash. The shopkeeps who are also the owners are so appreciative as it's essentially a 5-7% "tip". It's difficult for them to keep good change though as people who do spend cash are either $20 or $100 bills which for a few $5-10 items consumes the small bills pretty fast. But in a no sales tax state so makes giving change easier (no coins)

doubled112 1y ago
> It's difficult for them to keep good change I've felt this struggle from the other side working at a gas station attendant. We were only allowed to have $100 before the till made us dump it. Can you break this $100 bill? Maybe if you pump another $50 in fuel, unless you want this roll of quarters too.
gruez 1y ago
>The shopkeeps who are also the owners are so appreciative as it's essentially a 5-7% "tip". Because tax evasion? Otherwise credit card interchange rates are nowhere that high, typically 3%.
- manwe150 1y ago
  Square is 2.6% + 15¢, so to get 5-7%, you could be doing most transactions under $5. That seems to require fairly high sales volume to make any decent wage though, so there is an added transaction cost for them to “keep good change” instead of serving more customers
  - basch 1y ago
    Cash costs as much or more to handle. Potentially ranging from 4.7% to over 15%, costs include labor for counting change, closing drawers, preparing deposits, security expenses like armored transport, bank fees for cash services, insuring against significant risks of theft and fraud.

__MatrixMan__ 1y ago

I have similar concerns, but I think it's the payment conglomerates you have to worry about. Visa knows how much you spent, Fiserv knows what you bought.

lmz 1y ago
Sometimes Visa also knows what you buy: https://www.marqeta.com/blog/data-details-what-is-level-1-2-and-3-data https://www.marqeta.com/blog/data-details-what-is-level-1-2-...
account42 1y ago
It's not just Fiserv, there are often others involved as well. Even the merchant gets more data as they now have a fairly good way to identify you and correlate transactions.
- __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
  Sure but that's only going to be among transactions that you made with that merchant.

ekianjo 1y ago

> profusion of "no cash accepted" signs How this is even legal baffles me

schaefer 1y ago
As I understand it, the argument is: cash is valid payment for all debts public or private. But a sale isn’t a debt. The business that refuses your cash sale is refusing your business at the time of sale.
- manwe150 1y ago
  Apparently that explanation is even an FAQ on the fed website: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
NYC outlawed cashless operations after it started to become popular and the marginalized were increasingly locked out of everyday commerce. Hopefully it catches on in the rest of the US.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  I didn't know this. Thanks for the tip. https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/Prohibition-of-Cashless-Establishments.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/consumers/Prohibition-of-Cashle... You can even report establishments for refusing cash by category: https://portal.311.nyc.gov/article/?kanumber=KA-03302 https://portal.311.nyc.gov/article/?kanumber=KA-03302

r0m4n0 1y ago

I think this writer focuses on the buyer side but on the merchant side, there are similar tradeoffs. People (employees, robbers etc) steal cash and it adds work to close out registers at the end of your day. Having no cash in your store solves those problems. I run a non profit with membership dues and I have tried to just boot the 3% of our membership that pay w/ check or cash annually (I haven’t convinced the rest of the board so we haven’t done it yet). It takes so much extra time to follow it in real life, receive checks in the mail, and effort to deposit in the bank. It’s just not worth the time

snypher 1y ago
Pretty scummy way to reject the people you rely on to fund your cause. Do you get paid from this non-profit you run?
- Robelius 1y ago
  What’s scummy about this? Seems like the poster was giving a perspective where they are trying to maximize outcomes of the non-profit rather than maximize dollars raised.
  - wrp 1y ago
    It depends on the nature of the non-profit. If membership confers some benefit, then it would be deliberately denying that benefit to the class of people who can only pay by cash or check. That would be scummy.
- r0m4n0 1y ago
  No, I donate a lot of money on top of the time I volunteer for free. Someone has to spend maybe an hour every few months to deposit a single check for $50. You got me on the rejection part because there are some benefits the members get (being able to attend social events, newsletters, etc) but if your donation is a net negative on an organization, I just don’t think they should donate at all. They don’t know it’s a net negative though and maybe would donate with an electronic payment but possibly don’t know? I think it’s mostly old people doing things the way they are used to But TBH I’m not sure if much of this matters other than the ratio. Time is money and if there aren’t enough people utilizing something, it’s just not worth it to continue. If it’s a government org that’s possibly the only thing that needs to accept all forms of payment

Wistar 1y ago

I always carry cash. Just tonight, I saw that the local sandwich shop that I frequent put up a NO CASH ACCEPTED sign. I asked why the change and the worker said it is due to employee theft. I asked if the tip jar still accepted cash. “Yes,” he said.