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I don't think it's actually irrelevant; there's a reason they did it that way. Getting commit access and being the only one who can even read the code are two v
by AnthonyMouse 1y ago
I don't think it's actually irrelevant; there's a reason they did it that way. Getting commit access and being the only one who can even read the code are two very different things. Even if you can modify the code, the less obvious it is that the change is adding a backdoor the less likely someone else is to catch you.
- tptacek 1y agoI think it would be so difficult to convince me that a state-level adversary who has obtained persistent access to Netscreen's builds can't hide arbitrary backdoors that it isn't really worth hashing this out. I'm just going to point out again that the Netscreen attack didn't break the "NOBUS" property of Dual EC --- so far as we know, the Dual EC private keys have never leaked.
- AnthonyMouse 1y agoIt seems like you're implying they'd be too good to ever get caught, but... they got caught. The trouble is, making a backdoor less obvious makes it more likely that if they try it 10 times they don't get caught all 10 times, more likely it gets into production before they get caught, more likely that it stays in production for a year instead of a month, etc.
- tptacek 1y agoWho got caught? The Juniper hackers? Obviously yes. They're not NSA. Also, "never getting caught" isn't what NOBUS means.
- AnthonyMouse 1y agoI mean, didn't the NSA also get caught by Snowden? They intended it to be a secret. But the Juniper hackers are the NOBUS failure because changing the locks on a backdoor that somebody else had installed is easier than getting one installed yourself.
- tptacek 1y agoI don't think you're following. "NOBUS" doesn't mean "nobody but us can ever find out about the backdoor"; it means "nobody but us can actually use the backdoor". Ironically, the Juniper PKRNG backdoor --- I assume it was Chinese --- is also a NOBUS backdoor!
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago> it means "nobody but us can actually use the backdoor". Ironically, the Juniper PKRNG backdoor --- I assume it was Chinese --- is also a NOBUS backdoor! Except that it was intended to be "nobody but the us (i.e. the NSA)" and now you've got China using it.
- tptacek 1y agoNo, we don't. Respectfully, I don't think you're working from an accurate notion of what "NOBUS" means, and I don't think you have your head fully around the Juniper hack. The Juniper hack replaced the existing backdoor; it didn't break it. NOBUS or not, if your adversary controls your source tree, you're boned. Here, the adversary replaced "our" NOBUS backdoor with theirs. Two different backdoors, different keys, same structure.