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I am surrounded by people in my daily life who are celebrating this change, I can tell you exactly why. The establishment has done very little to try and addre

by Dig1t 1y ago

I am surrounded by people in my daily life who are celebrating this change, I can tell you exactly why. The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. Their response is mostly one of condescension and derision. Rather than using kindness and education, many establishment folks simply refuse to meet these people where they are and instead continue to act as though it’s completely insane to question the things that are being injected into their children. There are completely valid questions for normal people to ask that don’t receive much of a response often, things like “why are vaccines immune from lawsuits?” and “why has the standard vaccine schedule increased so much?”. Instead of providing good clear answers to these questions, skeptics are marginalized. How can this behavior not create distrust in scientific experts? The more you talk down to people, the less likely they are to trust you. Note: I myself am not a vaccine skeptic, but I know many and I hear their reasoning often.

fzeroracer 1y ago
> The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. For decades, the argument against anti-vaccination skeptics was to try and educate them. We've put them on TV, thrown our most well-reasoned arguments against them, showed them the data and proved to them multiple times over that their arguments are wrong. We argued over and over and over again that Andrew Wakefield, a literal fraudster who kicked off a large part of things and who aimed to profit from the anti-vaccine sentiment, was wrong. Frankly the only argument and patience I have now for anti-vaccine skeptics is extreme derision and insults. They deserve nothing and should receive zero respect.
- Dig1t 1y ago
  I can tell you that whatever education you think has been put out there, it’s absolutely not reaching its intended audience, and much of what does land is actually doing the opposite of what it intends to do. Example: Colbert’s “The vax scene” episode did more to damage the reputation of vaccines than I think anyone realizes. Yes discrediting Andrew Wakefield helps, but you have to fight the incorrect ideas about the vaccines themselves not just one of the people who pushed these ideas. One example: many skeptics ask the question “if vaccines are so safe then why are they immune to lawsuits?”. This is a very reasonable question for people to ask! And honestly, responding to this common sense question with derision and insults hurts your cause. The establishment needs good responses to questions like this and they need to be repeated in a non-hateful way. 99% of media and online conversation is just condescending. Like look at the comments in this HN post, most people are extremely unkind. “Extreme derision and insults” is going to make the problem so much worse.
  - fzeroracer 1y ago
    I don't care. I've spent likely far more time than you trying to argue against and correct these anti-vaccine behaviors and ideas. They always start with 'reasonable questions' that lead into insane nonsense and there is no correcting that stance no matter how much evidence you give to the contrary. People are extremely unkind because they're matching the same level of vitriol and shit spewed out by the anti-vaccine nuts and frankly most people are tired of it.
  - mr-wendel 1y ago
    Let's also recall that almost nobody changes their mind when engaged in these types of conversations, and the more confrontational the more likely you cement existing biases. Where you do stand to make a difference is with more casual observers and people on the fence. A show of patience and respect bolsters a good argument better than perhaps even the argument itself. What does tend to change people's minds is forming good relationships with people who hold differing opinions and their desire to make the relationship work. Logic and rationality are secondary considerations. Hopefully they will accept better conclusions for these reasons, but it's quite unlikely without adopting the kind of approach espoused by Dig1t.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    All of these questions get answered over and over and over, with good answers, often backed by decades of medical research, delivered by everyone from the Surgeon General to contagious disease experts, all the way down to individual people's family doctors. If the evidence and research is not getting to people, it's because they are deliberately blocking it out. You can't bop people on the head and force them to get educated. And you can't "meet these people where they are" because where they are is a fortress that is specifically built to repel knowledge and expertise. And, of course, when you point that out, it's attacked as condescending and derision. I, too, live in a community surrounded by these people. There is no reaching them, sadly.
  - aredox 1y ago
    >Colbert’s “The vax scene” episode did more to damage the reputation of vaccines than I think anyone realizes. Oh yeah, perfectly rational to make health decisions based on a mediocre skit by a comedian you don't like and almost never watch... The people around you are perfectly sane people who are not trying to find any excuse to justify their tribal, cultish beliefs. The solution is easy: vaccine proponents, whoever they are must be absolutely perfect in every way, shape and form. Otherwise vaccine sceptics will instead prefer to believe the rich son of a political dynasty (who is certainly not a member of the establishment!) who had a brain worm and dumped a dead bear in central park and who has been proven a liar dozens and dozens of times. Really wonder why vaccine "sceptics" apply a double standard... What could be the motivation behind this inconsistency? Truly a mystery. We should engage them in debate, we could certainly convince them (if we, and everyone and anyone who could be linked to vaccines, are perfect).
- tstrimple 1y ago
  This is it quite frankly. Platforming anti-vaxxers creates more anti-vaxxers no matter how thoroughly their arguments are discredited. Just the fact that conspiracy theory lunatics are put on the same stage as actual fucking experts elevates the opinions of the ignorant masses to the same level as actual research and results. You saw the exact same thing when big name scientists started debating religious zealots on the TV. It literally does not matter how many facts are presented or how logically outmatched the Christians are. Just the fact that there is a Christian apologist on the same screen as Bill Nye makes the Christian claims more credible and has proven to be an incredible fund raiser for them. Same thing happens when we entertain debates with flat earth believers. Doesn't matter that in every debate and in every experiment the flat earthers are proven to be completely ridiculous people. The more their ideology is exposed and debated the more morons who think there must be something to it. The "great marketplace of ideas" is full of spam and outright lies and the majority of the population aren't equipped in the slightest to navigate it.
riahi 1y ago
Because they are disingenuous in their “just asking questions”. They don’t want to vaccinate due to literal decades of propaganda campaigns turning anti vaccination into a tribal identity. They just want some “reason” to blame others for the way they want to behave. It reminds me of the Matt Bors comic https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/30/1981821/-Cartoon-You-made-me-do-it https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/30/1981821/-Cartoon-...
aredox 1y ago
>There are completely valid questions for normal people to ask that don’t receive much of a response often Wrong, wrong, wrong. These perfectly valid answers have received again and again perfectly valid answers, and vaccine "sceptics" refuse to engage with the answers. It is all FUD as a way of life. Your repeated use of "the establishment" shows perfectly well that they don't want to hear the answer anyway. It's "us against them". Any official data - even from the CDC, or the media - that may show vaccines cause harm is blindly trusted and paraded. Any official data - from the same sources - that shows vaccines don't cause harm is manipulated, fake, censored by everyone: doctors, scientists, statisticians, officials, the Media...
LexiMax 1y ago
I am also friends with a fair few anti-vaxers and have attempted the reasonable and kind approach based on the facts. After many, many attempts, the conclusion I finally came to is that there isn't truly a gap in communication, but in culture. This can take many forms, be it religious, political, or just whatever social groups they are a part of, but I believe that this form of motivated reasoning isn't necessarily something you can reason someone out of. To that effect, I don't believe trying to inform them is productive, but rather asking probing questions that attempt to reveal _why_ they believe what they believe. In my own personal experience, I've found that nearly all of the anti-vaxxers I've talked to root their dismissal for vaccinations in religious reasons or in grievance politics.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    It's not so much that they didn't reason themselves into a position, as much as that they actually _do_ have a reason - just not the one they're telling you. If anything, it reminds me of an X-Y problem. They don't really believe Y, but they are a single issue voter on X, so if their party takes Y position they feel obligated to take it as well. And often, if you dig enough, the X that I keep encountering is the desire for a christian nationalist ethnostate. It's something they'll readily admit to if you aren't combative and just keep asking questions in the tradition of socratic irony.
intended 1y ago
Please lay no hopes in the establishment. There is NOTHING that will get past the FOX barrier, unless it serves a political purpose for the Republican Party. There is no “establishment” here. When Fox began targeting environmental efforts against global warming back in the day, they happily platformed cranks to spread FUD. Eventually it got so bad that scientists went to FOX to try and bring the case to the audience and explain things. At which point they were fed to the lions. There is no fair fight in the media space. There can be no profitable trade in hard to produce facts, when the other side is able to sell cheaper emotionally salient content.

by Dig1t 1y ago

fzeroracer 1y ago

> The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. For decades, the argument against anti-vaccination skeptics was to try and educate them. We've put them on TV, thrown our most well-reasoned arguments against them, showed them the data and proved to them multiple times over that their arguments are wrong. We argued over and over and over again that Andrew Wakefield, a literal fraudster who kicked off a large part of things and who aimed to profit from the anti-vaccine sentiment, was wrong. Frankly the only argument and patience I have now for anti-vaccine skeptics is extreme derision and insults. They deserve nothing and should receive zero respect.

Dig1t 1y ago
I can tell you that whatever education you think has been put out there, it’s absolutely not reaching its intended audience, and much of what does land is actually doing the opposite of what it intends to do. Example: Colbert’s “The vax scene” episode did more to damage the reputation of vaccines than I think anyone realizes. Yes discrediting Andrew Wakefield helps, but you have to fight the incorrect ideas about the vaccines themselves not just one of the people who pushed these ideas. One example: many skeptics ask the question “if vaccines are so safe then why are they immune to lawsuits?”. This is a very reasonable question for people to ask! And honestly, responding to this common sense question with derision and insults hurts your cause. The establishment needs good responses to questions like this and they need to be repeated in a non-hateful way. 99% of media and online conversation is just condescending. Like look at the comments in this HN post, most people are extremely unkind. “Extreme derision and insults” is going to make the problem so much worse.
- fzeroracer 1y ago
  I don't care. I've spent likely far more time than you trying to argue against and correct these anti-vaccine behaviors and ideas. They always start with 'reasonable questions' that lead into insane nonsense and there is no correcting that stance no matter how much evidence you give to the contrary. People are extremely unkind because they're matching the same level of vitriol and shit spewed out by the anti-vaccine nuts and frankly most people are tired of it.
- mr-wendel 1y ago
  Let's also recall that almost nobody changes their mind when engaged in these types of conversations, and the more confrontational the more likely you cement existing biases. Where you do stand to make a difference is with more casual observers and people on the fence. A show of patience and respect bolsters a good argument better than perhaps even the argument itself. What does tend to change people's minds is forming good relationships with people who hold differing opinions and their desire to make the relationship work. Logic and rationality are secondary considerations. Hopefully they will accept better conclusions for these reasons, but it's quite unlikely without adopting the kind of approach espoused by Dig1t.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  All of these questions get answered over and over and over, with good answers, often backed by decades of medical research, delivered by everyone from the Surgeon General to contagious disease experts, all the way down to individual people's family doctors. If the evidence and research is not getting to people, it's because they are deliberately blocking it out. You can't bop people on the head and force them to get educated. And you can't "meet these people where they are" because where they are is a fortress that is specifically built to repel knowledge and expertise. And, of course, when you point that out, it's attacked as condescending and derision. I, too, live in a community surrounded by these people. There is no reaching them, sadly.
- aredox 1y ago
  >Colbert’s “The vax scene” episode did more to damage the reputation of vaccines than I think anyone realizes. Oh yeah, perfectly rational to make health decisions based on a mediocre skit by a comedian you don't like and almost never watch... The people around you are perfectly sane people who are not trying to find any excuse to justify their tribal, cultish beliefs. The solution is easy: vaccine proponents, whoever they are must be absolutely perfect in every way, shape and form. Otherwise vaccine sceptics will instead prefer to believe the rich son of a political dynasty (who is certainly not a member of the establishment!) who had a brain worm and dumped a dead bear in central park and who has been proven a liar dozens and dozens of times. Really wonder why vaccine "sceptics" apply a double standard... What could be the motivation behind this inconsistency? Truly a mystery. We should engage them in debate, we could certainly convince them (if we, and everyone and anyone who could be linked to vaccines, are perfect).
tstrimple 1y ago
This is it quite frankly. Platforming anti-vaxxers creates more anti-vaxxers no matter how thoroughly their arguments are discredited. Just the fact that conspiracy theory lunatics are put on the same stage as actual fucking experts elevates the opinions of the ignorant masses to the same level as actual research and results. You saw the exact same thing when big name scientists started debating religious zealots on the TV. It literally does not matter how many facts are presented or how logically outmatched the Christians are. Just the fact that there is a Christian apologist on the same screen as Bill Nye makes the Christian claims more credible and has proven to be an incredible fund raiser for them. Same thing happens when we entertain debates with flat earth believers. Doesn't matter that in every debate and in every experiment the flat earthers are proven to be completely ridiculous people. The more their ideology is exposed and debated the more morons who think there must be something to it. The "great marketplace of ideas" is full of spam and outright lies and the majority of the population aren't equipped in the slightest to navigate it.

riahi 1y ago

Because they are disingenuous in their “just asking questions”. They don’t want to vaccinate due to literal decades of propaganda campaigns turning anti vaccination into a tribal identity. They just want some “reason” to blame others for the way they want to behave. It reminds me of the Matt Bors comic https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/30/1981821/-Cartoon-You-made-me-do-it https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/30/1981821/-Cartoon-...

aredox 1y ago

>There are completely valid questions for normal people to ask that don’t receive much of a response often Wrong, wrong, wrong. These perfectly valid answers have received again and again perfectly valid answers, and vaccine "sceptics" refuse to engage with the answers. It is all FUD as a way of life. Your repeated use of "the establishment" shows perfectly well that they don't want to hear the answer anyway. It's "us against them". Any official data - even from the CDC, or the media - that may show vaccines cause harm is blindly trusted and paraded. Any official data - from the same sources - that shows vaccines don't cause harm is manipulated, fake, censored by everyone: doctors, scientists, statisticians, officials, the Media...

LexiMax 1y ago

I am also friends with a fair few anti-vaxers and have attempted the reasonable and kind approach based on the facts. After many, many attempts, the conclusion I finally came to is that there isn't truly a gap in communication, but in culture. This can take many forms, be it religious, political, or just whatever social groups they are a part of, but I believe that this form of motivated reasoning isn't necessarily something you can reason someone out of. To that effect, I don't believe trying to inform them is productive, but rather asking probing questions that attempt to reveal _why_ they believe what they believe. In my own personal experience, I've found that nearly all of the anti-vaxxers I've talked to root their dismissal for vaccinations in religious reasons or in grievance politics.

NoGravitas 1y ago
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.
- LexiMax 1y ago
  It's not so much that they didn't reason themselves into a position, as much as that they actually _do_ have a reason - just not the one they're telling you. If anything, it reminds me of an X-Y problem. They don't really believe Y, but they are a single issue voter on X, so if their party takes Y position they feel obligated to take it as well. And often, if you dig enough, the X that I keep encountering is the desire for a christian nationalist ethnostate. It's something they'll readily admit to if you aren't combative and just keep asking questions in the tradition of socratic irony.

intended 1y ago

Please lay no hopes in the establishment. There is NOTHING that will get past the FOX barrier, unless it serves a political purpose for the Republican Party. There is no “establishment” here. When Fox began targeting environmental efforts against global warming back in the day, they happily platformed cranks to spread FUD. Eventually it got so bad that scientists went to FOX to try and bring the case to the audience and explain things. At which point they were fed to the lions. There is no fair fight in the media space. There can be no profitable trade in hard to produce facts, when the other side is able to sell cheaper emotionally salient content.