9 ms·

How are others processing this horrific backsliding in scientific trust, literacy, and straight up lack of compassion for the most vulnerable in the US? Folks

by bdhe 1y ago

How are others processing this horrific backsliding in scientific trust, literacy, and straight up lack of compassion for the most vulnerable in the US? Folks can surely see the connection between dropping vaccination rates and the rise of measles in Texas for example. Why aren't more people outraged and how are they allowing unprincipled politicians to impact their lives so drastically in pursuit of power?

pstuart 1y ago
This will be a classic case of FAFO (Fuck Around and Find Out). It's a pity that innocent children will likely bear the brunt of the finding out.
- throwawayqqq11 1y ago
  [flagged]
iLoveOncall 1y ago
[flagged]
- JohnFen 1y ago
  > being dead is better than being wrong. Literally. Yes. The real tragedy isn't that, though, it's that endangering and killing others is better than being wrong for them. It's pure sociopathy. Like that father.
  - tstrimple 1y ago
    Some of these folks are willing to kill themselves as well if they think the alternative is some minority receiving benefits. See Dying of Whiteness. https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jonathan-m-metzl-dying-whiteness/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jonathan-m-metzl-dying... > Even on death’s doorstep, Trevor was not angry. In fact, he staunchly supported the stance promoted by his elected officials. “Ain’t no way I would ever support Obamacare or sign up for it,” he told me. “I would rather die.” When I asked him why he felt this way even as he faced severe illness, he explained: “We don’t need any more government in our lives. And in any case, no way I want my tax dollars paying for Mexicans or welfare queens.” > At the most basic level, Trevor died of the toxic effects of liver damage caused by hepatitis C. Yet Trevor’s deteriorating condition resulted also from the toxic effects of dogma. Dogma that told him that governmental assistance in any form was evil and not to be trusted, even when the assistance came in the form of federal contracts with private health insurance or pharmaceutical companies, or from expanded communal safety nets. Dogma that, as he made abundantly clear, aligned with beliefs about a racial hierarchy that overtly and implicitly aimed to keep white Americans hovering above Mexicans, welfare queens, and nonwhite others. Dogma suggesting to Trevor that minority groups received lavish benefits from the state, even though he himself lived and died on a low-income budget with state assistance. Trevor voiced a literal willingness to die for his place in this hierarchy, rather than participate in a system that might put him on the same plane as immigrants or racial minorities.
nerdjon 1y ago
[flagged]
atomicnumber3 1y ago
Decades of disinformation and partisan politics being brought to its ultimate conclusion.
- throwawayqqq11 1y ago
  I wonder if the less manipulated have lasting moments of "what if they called us dipshits for a reason". We only see the extremes here. I wish those more reasonably right leaning internet victims would speak up as loud and as long as they could.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
dogleash 1y ago
> How are others processing this horrific backsliding in scientific trust Tragic, but we sleepwalked into this state of affairs by downplaying the severity of epistemic failures in academia and science communication. Oh it's just a little publish or perish here, replication crisis there. Nobody really believes the clickbait headline. Overall we're on a solid foundation. Science means rigor, right? So the word science means rigor was done. Getting mad at someone for over-correcting won't make them feel more righteous. We have failed our fellow countrymen.
- krapp 1y ago
  This seems like a bit of a retrofiction. People weren't pushing the anti-vaccine narratives because of the replication crisis, rather they used the replication crisis to justify their pre-existing mistrust of vaccines. The science around vaccines is actually sound, there's was no "replication crisis" or failure of rigor in that regard. Yes, even the covid vaccine was tested and went through clinical trials.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- watwut 1y ago
  No, this is result of intentionally and well paid propaganda. It has nothing to do with failure of science or academy. Even less with publish or perish. This is happening because some rich people radical right on republican side wanted to happen. Smart conservatives worked for this for years. They knew they are lying, but it did not mattered to them. Blaming others is just another round of enabling. Blame shifting away from who intentionally caused this wont help anyone and does not reflect the truth. Also, publish or perish thing is literally something the same people actively worked for.
- tpm 1y ago
  This has nothing at all to do with academia and science.
- aredox 1y ago
cosmicgadget 1y ago
It's quicksand. The more you tell people RFK is a quack, they more they'll believe him and that you are working for 'them'.
Dig1t 1y ago
I am surrounded by people in my daily life who are celebrating this change, I can tell you exactly why. The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. Their response is mostly one of condescension and derision. Rather than using kindness and education, many establishment folks simply refuse to meet these people where they are and instead continue to act as though it’s completely insane to question the things that are being injected into their children. There are completely valid questions for normal people to ask that don’t receive much of a response often, things like “why are vaccines immune from lawsuits?” and “why has the standard vaccine schedule increased so much?”. Instead of providing good clear answers to these questions, skeptics are marginalized. How can this behavior not create distrust in scientific experts? The more you talk down to people, the less likely they are to trust you. Note: I myself am not a vaccine skeptic, but I know many and I hear their reasoning often.
- fzeroracer 1y ago
  > The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. For decades, the argument against anti-vaccination skeptics was to try and educate them. We've put them on TV, thrown our most well-reasoned arguments against them, showed them the data and proved to them multiple times over that their arguments are wrong. We argued over and over and over again that Andrew Wakefield, a literal fraudster who kicked off a large part of things and who aimed to profit from the anti-vaccine sentiment, was wrong. Frankly the only argument and patience I have now for anti-vaccine skeptics is extreme derision and insults. They deserve nothing and should receive zero respect.
  - Dig1t 1y ago
    I can tell you that whatever education you think has been put out there, it’s absolutely not reaching its intended audience, and much of what does land is actually doing the opposite of what it intends to do. Example: Colbert’s “The vax scene” episode did more to damage the reputation of vaccines than I think anyone realizes. Yes discrediting Andrew Wakefield helps, but you have to fight the incorrect ideas about the vaccines themselves not just one of the people who pushed these ideas. One example: many skeptics ask the question “if vaccines are so safe then why are they immune to lawsuits?”. This is a very reasonable question for people to ask! And honestly, responding to this common sense question with derision and insults hurts your cause. The establishment needs good responses to questions like this and they need to be repeated in a non-hateful way. 99% of media and online conversation is just condescending. Like look at the comments in this HN post, most people are extremely unkind. “Extreme derision and insults” is going to make the problem so much worse.

by bdhe 1y ago

pstuart 1y ago

This will be a classic case of FAFO (Fuck Around and Find Out). It's a pity that innocent children will likely bear the brunt of the finding out.

throwawayqqq11 1y ago
[flagged]

iLoveOncall 1y ago

[flagged]

JohnFen 1y ago
> being dead is better than being wrong. Literally. Yes. The real tragedy isn't that, though, it's that endangering and killing others is better than being wrong for them. It's pure sociopathy. Like that father.
- tstrimple 1y ago
  Some of these folks are willing to kill themselves as well if they think the alternative is some minority receiving benefits. See Dying of Whiteness. https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jonathan-m-metzl-dying-whiteness/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/jonathan-m-metzl-dying... > Even on death’s doorstep, Trevor was not angry. In fact, he staunchly supported the stance promoted by his elected officials. “Ain’t no way I would ever support Obamacare or sign up for it,” he told me. “I would rather die.” When I asked him why he felt this way even as he faced severe illness, he explained: “We don’t need any more government in our lives. And in any case, no way I want my tax dollars paying for Mexicans or welfare queens.” > At the most basic level, Trevor died of the toxic effects of liver damage caused by hepatitis C. Yet Trevor’s deteriorating condition resulted also from the toxic effects of dogma. Dogma that told him that governmental assistance in any form was evil and not to be trusted, even when the assistance came in the form of federal contracts with private health insurance or pharmaceutical companies, or from expanded communal safety nets. Dogma that, as he made abundantly clear, aligned with beliefs about a racial hierarchy that overtly and implicitly aimed to keep white Americans hovering above Mexicans, welfare queens, and nonwhite others. Dogma suggesting to Trevor that minority groups received lavish benefits from the state, even though he himself lived and died on a low-income budget with state assistance. Trevor voiced a literal willingness to die for his place in this hierarchy, rather than participate in a system that might put him on the same plane as immigrants or racial minorities.

nerdjon 1y ago

[flagged]

atomicnumber3 1y ago

Decades of disinformation and partisan politics being brought to its ultimate conclusion.

throwawayqqq11 1y ago
I wonder if the less manipulated have lasting moments of "what if they called us dipshits for a reason". We only see the extremes here. I wish those more reasonably right leaning internet victims would speak up as loud and as long as they could.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

dogleash 1y ago

> How are others processing this horrific backsliding in scientific trust Tragic, but we sleepwalked into this state of affairs by downplaying the severity of epistemic failures in academia and science communication. Oh it's just a little publish or perish here, replication crisis there. Nobody really believes the clickbait headline. Overall we're on a solid foundation. Science means rigor, right? So the word science means rigor was done. Getting mad at someone for over-correcting won't make them feel more righteous. We have failed our fellow countrymen.

krapp 1y ago
This seems like a bit of a retrofiction. People weren't pushing the anti-vaccine narratives because of the replication crisis, rather they used the replication crisis to justify their pre-existing mistrust of vaccines. The science around vaccines is actually sound, there's was no "replication crisis" or failure of rigor in that regard. Yes, even the covid vaccine was tested and went through clinical trials.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
watwut 1y ago
No, this is result of intentionally and well paid propaganda. It has nothing to do with failure of science or academy. Even less with publish or perish. This is happening because some rich people radical right on republican side wanted to happen. Smart conservatives worked for this for years. They knew they are lying, but it did not mattered to them. Blaming others is just another round of enabling. Blame shifting away from who intentionally caused this wont help anyone and does not reflect the truth. Also, publish or perish thing is literally something the same people actively worked for.
tpm 1y ago
This has nothing at all to do with academia and science.
aredox 1y ago

cosmicgadget 1y ago

It's quicksand. The more you tell people RFK is a quack, they more they'll believe him and that you are working for 'them'.

Dig1t 1y ago

I am surrounded by people in my daily life who are celebrating this change, I can tell you exactly why. The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. Their response is mostly one of condescension and derision. Rather than using kindness and education, many establishment folks simply refuse to meet these people where they are and instead continue to act as though it’s completely insane to question the things that are being injected into their children. There are completely valid questions for normal people to ask that don’t receive much of a response often, things like “why are vaccines immune from lawsuits?” and “why has the standard vaccine schedule increased so much?”. Instead of providing good clear answers to these questions, skeptics are marginalized. How can this behavior not create distrust in scientific experts? The more you talk down to people, the less likely they are to trust you. Note: I myself am not a vaccine skeptic, but I know many and I hear their reasoning often.

fzeroracer 1y ago
> The establishment has done very little to try and address concerns from vaccine skeptics. For decades, the argument against anti-vaccination skeptics was to try and educate them. We've put them on TV, thrown our most well-reasoned arguments against them, showed them the data and proved to them multiple times over that their arguments are wrong. We argued over and over and over again that Andrew Wakefield, a literal fraudster who kicked off a large part of things and who aimed to profit from the anti-vaccine sentiment, was wrong. Frankly the only argument and patience I have now for anti-vaccine skeptics is extreme derision and insults. They deserve nothing and should receive zero respect.
- Dig1t 1y ago
  I can tell you that whatever education you think has been put out there, it’s absolutely not reaching its intended audience, and much of what does land is actually doing the opposite of what it intends to do. Example: Colbert’s “The vax scene” episode did more to damage the reputation of vaccines than I think anyone realizes. Yes discrediting Andrew Wakefield helps, but you have to fight the incorrect ideas about the vaccines themselves not just one of the people who pushed these ideas. One example: many skeptics ask the question “if vaccines are so safe then why are they immune to lawsuits?”. This is a very reasonable question for people to ask! And honestly, responding to this common sense question with derision and insults hurts your cause. The establishment needs good responses to questions like this and they need to be repeated in a non-hateful way. 99% of media and online conversation is just condescending. Like look at the comments in this HN post, most people are extremely unkind. “Extreme derision and insults” is going to make the problem so much worse.