4 ms·

I don't understand why 0 and O look nearly identical.

teraflop 1y ago
That's true of lots of fonts. I don't think contexts where you would have to distinguish between those two characters are nearly as common in aviation as they are in programming.
jeffbee 1y ago
What would be displayed in an aircraft cockpit where this ambiguity would matter?
ilc 1y ago
Aviation use. They won't allow O and 0 to be valid for the same data. So there is no need to disambiguate them.
- illamint 1y ago
  It's funny, though, there's literally an example of this in the picture located on the ENAC project page for this font in the flight plan screen: https://lii.enac.fr/projects/definition-and-validation-of-an-aeronautical-font/ https://lii.enac.fr/projects/definition-and-validation-of-an... Also seems to be more discussion of this point the last time this was posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37519166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37519166 It also seems like there's a "slashed zero" glyph in the font, though I don't know how to actually type it: https://github.com/polarsys/b612/blob/master/sources/ufo/B612Mono-Italic.ufo/glyphs/slashedzero.glif https://github.com/polarsys/b612/blob/master/sources/ufo/B61...
  - ilc 1y ago
    The first pic shows the slashed 0, which is what I'd expect if there's any chance of confusion. But in general, aviation is pretty paranoid over this stuff.
  - masfuerte 1y ago
    I don't know how this font is encoded, but it's often the case in modern fonts that variant glyphs are mapped to the same code point (i.e. U+0030 in this case) so you can't directly type the variants. If you want to use them then your software needs to understand how to select font features. In CSS you can use font-feature-settings. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@font-face/font-feature-settings https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@font-face/...
  - cge 1y ago
    It's confusing and certainly non-standard, but rather than using a variant for this, the slashed zero is U+E007, in a private use area. There seems to be an unofficial variant here that might be more useful for coding: https://github.com/carlosedp/b612 https://github.com/carlosedp/b612
upofadown 1y ago
Perhaps that sort of error is not a problem in this particular context. Adding slashes or dots makes the zero or oh look like an eight. This issue affected the design of the FE-Schrift font: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FE-Schrift#Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FE-Schrift#Development
biohazard2 1y ago
It seems they are using the regular zero or a slashed variant depending on the risk of confusion: https://lii.enac.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/B612-PolarSysFont_ID1900x1400HD-V3.jpg https://lii.enac.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/B612-PolarSys...
- realo 1y ago
  Now that is an interesting picture! I am far from being a UI expert, but I do dabble and i would not have thought both forms of zero could be used in the same HMI display to lower cognitive load. Very interesting! Thanks.
  - java-man 1y ago
    Different contractors, probably.
- atonse 1y ago
  Wow that looks WAY better in the picture than in the various screenshots (and google fonts) we're all looking at. It looks very clean and legible.
killermonkeys 1y ago
Worth underlining that designers work very hard to understand the needs of the particular situation. Usually type designers consider the legibility of 3, 6, 8, 9, 0 (particularly 8 and 0) to be more important than between O and 0. But for coders, the ambiguity between O and 0 is a big problem, so a designer would consider that. An example for pilots: you are heading 180 and radio it as "one zero eight". Even if you immediately correct yourself, it's a problem.

That's true of lots of fonts. I don't think contexts where you would have to distinguish between those two characters are nearly as common in aviation as they are in programming.

jeffbee 1y ago

What would be displayed in an aircraft cockpit where this ambiguity would matter?

ilc 1y ago

Aviation use. They won't allow O and 0 to be valid for the same data. So there is no need to disambiguate them.

illamint 1y ago
It's funny, though, there's literally an example of this in the picture located on the ENAC project page for this font in the flight plan screen: https://lii.enac.fr/projects/definition-and-validation-of-an-aeronautical-font/ https://lii.enac.fr/projects/definition-and-validation-of-an... Also seems to be more discussion of this point the last time this was posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37519166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37519166 It also seems like there's a "slashed zero" glyph in the font, though I don't know how to actually type it: https://github.com/polarsys/b612/blob/master/sources/ufo/B612Mono-Italic.ufo/glyphs/slashedzero.glif https://github.com/polarsys/b612/blob/master/sources/ufo/B61...
- ilc 1y ago
  The first pic shows the slashed 0, which is what I'd expect if there's any chance of confusion. But in general, aviation is pretty paranoid over this stuff.
- masfuerte 1y ago
  I don't know how this font is encoded, but it's often the case in modern fonts that variant glyphs are mapped to the same code point (i.e. U+0030 in this case) so you can't directly type the variants. If you want to use them then your software needs to understand how to select font features. In CSS you can use font-feature-settings. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@font-face/font-feature-settings https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@font-face/...
- cge 1y ago
  It's confusing and certainly non-standard, but rather than using a variant for this, the slashed zero is U+E007, in a private use area. There seems to be an unofficial variant here that might be more useful for coding: https://github.com/carlosedp/b612 https://github.com/carlosedp/b612

upofadown 1y ago

Perhaps that sort of error is not a problem in this particular context. Adding slashes or dots makes the zero or oh look like an eight. This issue affected the design of the FE-Schrift font: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FE-Schrift#Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FE-Schrift#Development

biohazard2 1y ago

It seems they are using the regular zero or a slashed variant depending on the risk of confusion: https://lii.enac.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/B612-PolarSysFont_ID1900x1400HD-V3.jpg https://lii.enac.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/B612-PolarSys...

realo 1y ago
Now that is an interesting picture! I am far from being a UI expert, but I do dabble and i would not have thought both forms of zero could be used in the same HMI display to lower cognitive load. Very interesting! Thanks.
- java-man 1y ago
  Different contractors, probably.
atonse 1y ago
Wow that looks WAY better in the picture than in the various screenshots (and google fonts) we're all looking at. It looks very clean and legible.

killermonkeys 1y ago

Worth underlining that designers work very hard to understand the needs of the particular situation. Usually type designers consider the legibility of 3, 6, 8, 9, 0 (particularly 8 and 0) to be more important than between O and 0. But for coders, the ambiguity between O and 0 is a big problem, so a designer would consider that. An example for pilots: you are heading 180 and radio it as "one zero eight". Even if you immediately correct yourself, it's a problem.