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Neither the US cares about the climate amd doesn't care about the optics either. This is capitalism in action: solar is cheaper than anything else per kwh. The

by bgnn 1y ago

Neither the US cares about the climate amd doesn't care about the optics either. This is capitalism in action: solar is cheaper than anything else per kwh. The obsession with fossil in the West is due to the fossil fuel lobbies, not because of the rational market forces. China doesn't have that.

bwestergard 1y ago
Has there ever been a polity where your "rational market forces" prevailed over "lobbies" created by market forces?
- bgnn 1y ago
  Not in the history so far. I'm just trying to balance the extreme negative view on Chinese subsidies. They are of similar nature, and scale (as percentage of the total economy). In the EU we have this view of Chinese EVs because they get subsidies from the state, whereas we are doing the same for European car manufacturers (especially Germany amd France). We can at least be rational in our analysis.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  I mean, yes. The coal industry put huge amounts of effort into trying to halt oil and later gas, and it didn't really work in the end.
  - bwestergard 1y ago
    Do you have a citation for this? So far as I know, oil production increased coal consumption, and indirectly production, in the early twentieth century. https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels
Workaccount2 1y ago
I'm as big of a proponent on solar as anyone, but to avoid confusion, understand that those cheap solar figures come from using state subsidized Chinese panels on near worthless land in the cloudless remote southwest. If you are trying to use American made panels near population centers in the Northeast or the Midwest, the economics become much more challenging.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  California obtains almost 80% of their daily needs from solar, and is the world’s fourth largest economy. Almost the entire US could run off of solar and batteries based on current utility scale costs of both technologies (but will likely continue to use a mix of nuclear, renewables, batteries, transmission, demand response, and fossil gas for filling in the gaps as learning curves continue to deliver cheaper low carbon energy). It's simply a matter of will (or in the case of the US, lack thereof). https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-beats-the-heat/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-beats-the-heat/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ https://docs.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35097.pdf https://docs.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35097.pdf https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-land-power-us-solar/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-land-power-us... https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31072025/inside-clean-energy-solar-and-batteries-lead-us-power/ https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31072025/inside-clean-ene... https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-every-hour-of-every-day-is-here-and-it-changes-everything/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-e... https://electrek.co/2025/06/20/batteries-are-so-cheap-now-solar-power-doesnt-sleep-ember/ https://electrek.co/2025/06/20/batteries-are-so-cheap-now-so... https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/26/there-is-one-clear-winner-in-the-corn-vs-solar-battle/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/26/there-is-one-clear-winn...
  - chrisco255 1y ago
    No they don't. They get 56% of their power from coal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#/media/File%3AElectricity_production_in_China.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#... And they onboarded more coal plants in 2024 than any time in the prev 10 years: https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...
    - toomuchtodo 1y ago
      Perhaps you replied to the wrong comment? The one you replied to speaks to California, not China. US coal plant phase out tracking at https://coal.sierraclub.org/coal-plant-map https://coal.sierraclub.org/coal-plant-map and https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64604 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64604 | Europe at https://beyondfossilfuels.org/europes-coal-exit/ https://beyondfossilfuels.org/europes-coal-exit/ (existing coal is more expensive than new renewables and storage in the US and Europe, I cannot speak to the cost in China)
chrisco255 1y ago
China continues to get the bulk of their energy from fossil fuels. 56% from coal. China has double the emissions of the USA and new construction for coal plants reached a 10 year high in 2024: https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...
- triceratops 1y ago
  A case study in lying by omission. They build coal plants but they don't use them. In 2024 more than 80% of their energy growth came from solar and wind. As of 2023 solar was already cheaper than coal in China. What do you gain from lying like this? https://ember-energy.org/countries-and-regions/china/#:~:text=It%20was%20the%20largest%20country,capture%20or%20destroy%20the%20methane. https://ember-energy.org/countries-and-regions/china/#:~:tex... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China
  - chrisco255 1y ago
    Nothing I said was a lie. Its literally the entire picture of their power grid not just the last 12 months of some boom cycle. You omitted the fact that the majority of their power comes from the most polluting fossil fuel in existence: coal. And it continues to grow coal capacity. It's not building these plants for shits and giggles these are capital intensive projects.
    - triceratops 1y ago
      > Nothing I said was a lie. "Lying by omission" means things not said. Facts deliberately left out to mislead. > You omitted the fact that the majority of their power comes from the most polluting fossil fuel in existence: coal And you omitted the fact that majority of cumulative carbon emissions come from developed countries. Not to mention you're spreading your lies on an article that's literally about them reducing total emissions, the final refuge for people like you ("America still emits less, the climate doesn't care about pe-capita blah blah"). Seriously, re-evaluate your priors. Consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, someone is doing something about the climate, and not even on purpose, while we just sit around. > It's not building these plants for shits and giggles Apparently they are because 80% of their energy growth doesn't come from those plants. I think they're part jobs programs, part backup plan.
rsynnott 1y ago
The US administration currently almost seems like it does care, and that it is _pro_ climate change. Some really bizarre pronouncements on the topic from ol' mini-hands.

by bgnn 1y ago

bwestergard 1y ago

Has there ever been a polity where your "rational market forces" prevailed over "lobbies" created by market forces?

bgnn 1y ago
Not in the history so far. I'm just trying to balance the extreme negative view on Chinese subsidies. They are of similar nature, and scale (as percentage of the total economy). In the EU we have this view of Chinese EVs because they get subsidies from the state, whereas we are doing the same for European car manufacturers (especially Germany amd France). We can at least be rational in our analysis.
rsynnott 1y ago
I mean, yes. The coal industry put huge amounts of effort into trying to halt oil and later gas, and it didn't really work in the end.
- bwestergard 1y ago
  Do you have a citation for this? So far as I know, oil production increased coal consumption, and indirectly production, in the early twentieth century. https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels https://ourworldindata.org/fossil-fuels

Workaccount2 1y ago

I'm as big of a proponent on solar as anyone, but to avoid confusion, understand that those cheap solar figures come from using state subsidized Chinese panels on near worthless land in the cloudless remote southwest. If you are trying to use American made panels near population centers in the Northeast or the Midwest, the economics become much more challenging.

toomuchtodo 1y ago
California obtains almost 80% of their daily needs from solar, and is the world’s fourth largest economy. Almost the entire US could run off of solar and batteries based on current utility scale costs of both technologies (but will likely continue to use a mix of nuclear, renewables, batteries, transmission, demand response, and fossil gas for filling in the gaps as learning curves continue to deliver cheaper low carbon energy). It's simply a matter of will (or in the case of the US, lack thereof). https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-beats-the-heat/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-beats-the-heat/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ https://docs.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35097.pdf https://docs.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35097.pdf https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-land-power-us-solar/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-land-power-us... https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31072025/inside-clean-energy-solar-and-batteries-lead-us-power/ https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31072025/inside-clean-ene... https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-every-hour-of-every-day-is-here-and-it-changes-everything/ https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-e... https://electrek.co/2025/06/20/batteries-are-so-cheap-now-solar-power-doesnt-sleep-ember/ https://electrek.co/2025/06/20/batteries-are-so-cheap-now-so... https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/26/there-is-one-clear-winner-in-the-corn-vs-solar-battle/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/26/there-is-one-clear-winn...
- chrisco255 1y ago
  No they don't. They get 56% of their power from coal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#/media/File%3AElectricity_production_in_China.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#... And they onboarded more coal plants in 2024 than any time in the prev 10 years: https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    Perhaps you replied to the wrong comment? The one you replied to speaks to California, not China. US coal plant phase out tracking at https://coal.sierraclub.org/coal-plant-map https://coal.sierraclub.org/coal-plant-map and https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64604 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64604 | Europe at https://beyondfossilfuels.org/europes-coal-exit/ https://beyondfossilfuels.org/europes-coal-exit/ (existing coal is more expensive than new renewables and storage in the US and Europe, I cannot speak to the cost in China)

chrisco255 1y ago

China continues to get the bulk of their energy from fossil fuels. 56% from coal. China has double the emissions of the USA and new construction for coal plants reached a 10 year high in 2024: https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-...

triceratops 1y ago
A case study in lying by omission. They build coal plants but they don't use them. In 2024 more than 80% of their energy growth came from solar and wind. As of 2023 solar was already cheaper than coal in China. What do you gain from lying like this? https://ember-energy.org/countries-and-regions/china/#:~:text=It%20was%20the%20largest%20country,capture%20or%20destroy%20the%20methane. https://ember-energy.org/countries-and-regions/china/#:~:tex... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China
- chrisco255 1y ago
  Nothing I said was a lie. Its literally the entire picture of their power grid not just the last 12 months of some boom cycle. You omitted the fact that the majority of their power comes from the most polluting fossil fuel in existence: coal. And it continues to grow coal capacity. It's not building these plants for shits and giggles these are capital intensive projects.
  - triceratops 1y ago
    > Nothing I said was a lie. "Lying by omission" means things not said. Facts deliberately left out to mislead. > You omitted the fact that the majority of their power comes from the most polluting fossil fuel in existence: coal And you omitted the fact that majority of cumulative carbon emissions come from developed countries. Not to mention you're spreading your lies on an article that's literally about them reducing total emissions, the final refuge for people like you ("America still emits less, the climate doesn't care about pe-capita blah blah"). Seriously, re-evaluate your priors. Consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, someone is doing something about the climate, and not even on purpose, while we just sit around. > It's not building these plants for shits and giggles Apparently they are because 80% of their energy growth doesn't come from those plants. I think they're part jobs programs, part backup plan.

rsynnott 1y ago

The US administration currently almost seems like it does care, and that it is _pro_ climate change. Some really bizarre pronouncements on the topic from ol' mini-hands.