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So what you're saying is that boycotting is totally immoral? After all, that's reacting against Israeli civilians, which is not okay according to you. Or more

by spwa4 1y ago

So what you're saying is that boycotting is totally immoral? After all, that's reacting against Israeli civilians, which is not okay according to you. Or more to the point, why do we always judge Israel and Palestine with 2 different measures? Either Israel as a people and as a country are innocent and "it's only the government", hence boycotts are immoral. XOR people and government are both the same and boycotting every Palestinian everywhere on the planet is normal. Oh and accept that half the people just attack/boycott/refuse to serve or sell anything to all muslims, not just Palestinians, focusing especially on kids and other weak muslims, "because of the situation in Israel". Perhaps even have crowds chanting "gas all muslims" near mosques. And, of course, any kind of public success for Muslims must be brutally attacked, people, spectators, business partners, ... [1] After all, par for the course for Jews ... Not that anyone on the planet will be surprised that arguments only apply when making Jews evil, not to anyone else (more general any group we don't like, gypsies, the mentally ill, especially against mentally ill children, ...) [1] https://www.algemeiner.com/2025/09/01/pro-palestinian-protesters-splatter-israeli-singer-red-paint-try-storm-stage-concert-poland/ https://www.algemeiner.com/2025/09/01/pro-palestinian-protes...

bjoli 1y ago
I never said that, and you are welcome to explain why you think i did. Coincidentally, regarding that: I think that argument fails . Israel and Palestine are not comparable. Israel is the oppressor. The Goliath. Israel is, just like apartheid south Africa was, a settler colonial project. Considering the amount of time Israel has spent thwarting democratic process in Palestine, resistance movements are not very surprising. Heck, even Hamas was helped from the start by Israel as a means to split the struggle for Palestinian independence. The divide has been very practical for Israel indeed: every time discussions have come up, the official response has been "who should we even negotiate with?". Support from Hamas has only grown because Fatah has been looked upon as weak because of their many concessions towards Israel that never went anywhere (Fatah being corrupt and incompetent has also played a role, of course) A large chunk of the world officially boycotted SA apartheid. Sadly our governments do not take their responsibility today, which means people take it into their own hands. That makes for an arbitrary and very uneven form of mob justice.
- spwa4 1y ago
  Can you answer the real question? How do we force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel? Because none of this explains how you decide on boycotts, and how you intend to achieve peace. If there's one thing all muslim countries have in common, it's oppression. None respect human rights (even Morocco and Turkey, both in some ways more liberal than many European countries, have laws against freedom of religion). Half of them are attacking others. Morocco oppresses Western Sahara, as well as it's own religious minorities. Turkey oppresses Kurds, both inside and outside Turkey. Turkey oppresses religious minorities, also inside and outside Turkey. Both countries, of course, are the "goliaths" in those conflicts. Palestine oppresses religious minorities. Of course, hamas goes further and apparently oppresses most families mafia-style, massacres gay people, oppresses religious minorities (though both PA and hamas have exterminated Palestinian Jews, Shi'a and Druze (yes, they existed), and 90%+ of Palestian Christians) Obviously this argument cannot justify a boycott against Israel and not against, frankly, every muslim state on the planet. And those are the very mildest of muslim countries. Plus, I feel you're not arguing in good faith. I feel like this is like those old cold-war "You have freedom in the Soviet Union" discussions where every discussion goes into total absurdity in an attempt to talk up socialism despite everyone in the room knowing full well that in reality, first, that nobody's free in a socialist country, two, that those discussion have one, and only one, purpose: to prevent reactions to Soviet invasions. This discussion for you seems to have ONE purpose only: to justify and amplify muslim violence against Israel. Otherwise: answer this question: HOW do we force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel.
  - peterashford 1y ago
    You don't force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel. Force is the root of the problem. Israel will only accept a peace that it defines and that is why it will never have peace. You can't make peace in bad faith
    - spwa4 1y ago
      > You don't force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel. See this is what I mean. The whole discussion is about ONE thing: allowing Palestinians to use whatever violence they want, including mass murder, to "win" (between quotes because the worst thing that could happen to Palestinians is that they win this conflict, as that will immediately cause all their allies to turn to enemies) Because the other interpretation of this statement is obviously not what you mean. Or do you accept there will be war, and it looks like Palestinians will lose, with whatever consequences that brings, probably leaving? Palestinians and their allies want war, nothing else. Hell, Palestinian allies, including "supporters" in the west, want war with Israel even more than the Palestinians themselves want it. Btw: allies, not just idiots in the west, but allies like Russia, Iran, China and Qatar, each of them oppressive hellholes that massacre their own population. That alone should tell you that the Palestinians are the wrong side to support.
peterashford 1y ago
Boycotts are fine. Bringing economic pressure on people who's behaviour you want to alter is quite acceptable and normal. Its just killing and displacing them which is the issue. You might notice that everyone condemned Hamas's Oct 7 attack.
- spwa4 1y ago
  > You might notice that everyone condemned Hamas's Oct 7 attack. Did they boycott Palestinians after that? Did they boycott Palestinians when they were using aid to execute constant rocket attacks against Israeli civilians?

by spwa4 1y ago

bjoli 1y ago

I never said that, and you are welcome to explain why you think i did. Coincidentally, regarding that: I think that argument fails . Israel and Palestine are not comparable. Israel is the oppressor. The Goliath. Israel is, just like apartheid south Africa was, a settler colonial project. Considering the amount of time Israel has spent thwarting democratic process in Palestine, resistance movements are not very surprising. Heck, even Hamas was helped from the start by Israel as a means to split the struggle for Palestinian independence. The divide has been very practical for Israel indeed: every time discussions have come up, the official response has been "who should we even negotiate with?". Support from Hamas has only grown because Fatah has been looked upon as weak because of their many concessions towards Israel that never went anywhere (Fatah being corrupt and incompetent has also played a role, of course) A large chunk of the world officially boycotted SA apartheid. Sadly our governments do not take their responsibility today, which means people take it into their own hands. That makes for an arbitrary and very uneven form of mob justice.

spwa4 1y ago
Can you answer the real question? How do we force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel? Because none of this explains how you decide on boycotts, and how you intend to achieve peace. If there's one thing all muslim countries have in common, it's oppression. None respect human rights (even Morocco and Turkey, both in some ways more liberal than many European countries, have laws against freedom of religion). Half of them are attacking others. Morocco oppresses Western Sahara, as well as it's own religious minorities. Turkey oppresses Kurds, both inside and outside Turkey. Turkey oppresses religious minorities, also inside and outside Turkey. Both countries, of course, are the "goliaths" in those conflicts. Palestine oppresses religious minorities. Of course, hamas goes further and apparently oppresses most families mafia-style, massacres gay people, oppresses religious minorities (though both PA and hamas have exterminated Palestinian Jews, Shi'a and Druze (yes, they existed), and 90%+ of Palestian Christians) Obviously this argument cannot justify a boycott against Israel and not against, frankly, every muslim state on the planet. And those are the very mildest of muslim countries. Plus, I feel you're not arguing in good faith. I feel like this is like those old cold-war "You have freedom in the Soviet Union" discussions where every discussion goes into total absurdity in an attempt to talk up socialism despite everyone in the room knowing full well that in reality, first, that nobody's free in a socialist country, two, that those discussion have one, and only one, purpose: to prevent reactions to Soviet invasions. This discussion for you seems to have ONE purpose only: to justify and amplify muslim violence against Israel. Otherwise: answer this question: HOW do we force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel.
- peterashford 1y ago
  You don't force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel. Force is the root of the problem. Israel will only accept a peace that it defines and that is why it will never have peace. You can't make peace in bad faith
  - spwa4 1y ago
    > You don't force Palestinians to accept peace with Israel. See this is what I mean. The whole discussion is about ONE thing: allowing Palestinians to use whatever violence they want, including mass murder, to "win" (between quotes because the worst thing that could happen to Palestinians is that they win this conflict, as that will immediately cause all their allies to turn to enemies) Because the other interpretation of this statement is obviously not what you mean. Or do you accept there will be war, and it looks like Palestinians will lose, with whatever consequences that brings, probably leaving? Palestinians and their allies want war, nothing else. Hell, Palestinian allies, including "supporters" in the west, want war with Israel even more than the Palestinians themselves want it. Btw: allies, not just idiots in the west, but allies like Russia, Iran, China and Qatar, each of them oppressive hellholes that massacre their own population. That alone should tell you that the Palestinians are the wrong side to support.

peterashford 1y ago

Boycotts are fine. Bringing economic pressure on people who's behaviour you want to alter is quite acceptable and normal. Its just killing and displacing them which is the issue. You might notice that everyone condemned Hamas's Oct 7 attack.

spwa4 1y ago
> You might notice that everyone condemned Hamas's Oct 7 attack. Did they boycott Palestinians after that? Did they boycott Palestinians when they were using aid to execute constant rocket attacks against Israeli civilians?