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No there is a major difference when social credit is centralized to a single authority , and people cannot use the law to protect from that authority. otherwis

by seydor 1y ago

No there is a major difference when social credit is centralized to a single authority , and people cannot use the law to protect from that authority. otherwise, people have always judged each other with any way they could

fmnxl 1y ago
Those "single authorities" you fear already exist in western countries, the mega-corporations that monopolise entire markets. The western system creates an illusion of choice, which those in power have found ways to manipulate. It has become merely a convenient tool for them to exploit the rest of the population, while the "free market" and "democracy" keep them oblivious to it. But whatever people like me say, it will be too hard for most of you to accept the reality.
- Swenrekcah 1y ago
  You describe a real problem and an attack vector on democracy that is being used. However you make it sound like everything is already lost when it certainly isn’t.
  - fmnxl 1y ago
    Thinking of it as an attack vector is the problem with people. I'm saying what you have isn't democracy. Your market isn't free. Voting between the same 2 parties or choosing to buy/rent from the same few mega corporations aren't real choices. Unless you guys start accepting that and find an alternative solution or system, you'll keep digging yourself deeper into the hole you're in. More debt, more wars, more homelessness, more crime, and no future.
    - taffer 1y ago
      I don't know where you are from (I'm really curious though), but where I live there are more than two political parties and more than a few mega corporations to buy or rent from. You seem to have an extremely distorted idea of what live is like in "western countries".
      - fmnxl 1y ago
        I lived in the UK for 10 years, I've also lived in a number of other countries, from democracies, communist (Vietnam), and varying degrees of democratic and economic freedoms. I'm aware there are more than exactly 2 parties in the ballots in many western countries. It's not about the numbers, but whether any of those choices really give the people real alternatives, or just different ways to screw the majority of the people. As you can probably can see from the above interaction, people resort very quickly to ad hominem attacks.
      - lnsru 1y ago
        Can you please share your country of residence? Because in Germany I really don’t feel the choice. There are few political parties, but I don’t feel this variety helps in any way. There are few mega corporations for everything else, just check the list of richest germans. Edit: I might be another troll, but from last few elections I don’t feel any progress. As an engineer I see continuous offshoring of well paid positions to cheaper EU countries. As self employed electrician I see regulatory and tax madness.
- ch4s3 1y ago
  > But whatever people like me say, it will be too hard for most of you to accept the reality. You seem to think awfully highly of your ability to reason about the world, but I find your claim to be fairly lacking. This all reads like the ramblings of a 19 year old who just discovered Chomsky.
  - propagandist 1y ago
    > You seem to think awfully highly of your ability to reason about the world, but I find your claim to be fairly lacking. This all reads like the ramblings of a 19 year old who just discovered Chomsky. Address the argument rather than engaging in ad hominem.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
      Show me the Americans stuck in a black hole where nobody processes their payment, banks won't handle their money, they can't vote, they can't travel, etc. because of their deviations? There are total nutjobs of all walks that are living just fine. There are actual Nazis and commies living just fine. It's a big country. If our whole society already has dystopian social credit it should be easy to find examples.
      - fmnxl 1y ago
        > Show me the Americans stuck in a black hole Stop right there, then you'll see them :) Millions of them
      - esseph 1y ago
        Go into a busy gas station in the US. Ask "Hey, is anybody here a felon?" (Doesn't matter if customer or if they're working there)
        ch4s3 1y ago
        Only about 6% of Americans have felony records as of 2023.
darthoctopus 1y ago
Did you even read the article? Here is the situation in China: > Here's what's actually happening. As of 2024, there's still no nationwide social credit score in China. Most private scoring systems have been shut down, and local government pilots have largely ended. It’s mainly a fragmented collection of regulatory compliance tools, mostly focused on financial behavior and business oversight. While well over 33 million businesses have been scored under corporate social credit systems, individual scoring remains limited to small pilot cities like Rongcheng. Even there, scoring systems have had "very limited impact" since they've never been elevated to provincial or national levels. Compare that to the situation with, say, credit scores in the US --- wholly run by an oligopoly of three private companies, but fully ingrained into how personal finances work here. At least a publicly run credit score would be held accountable, however indirectly, to voters and the law; and its safety might be treated as a matter of national security, rather than having Equifax and Experian leaking data like clockwork.
- gowld 1y ago
  You are conflating "social credit score", which hasn't been built out in China (although blacklisting, imprisonment, and torture for wrongthink has been built out), with "financial credit score" which exists in USA via private companies working togther, and "credit reports" which exist in both USA and China. China's is run by the unelected, dictatorial government.
  - darthoctopus 1y ago
    perhaps read the actual first paragraph of the article? the whole point of it is that, whether we call it that or not, our privately run reputation scores (including but not limited to credit scores) functionally are social credit scores --- except we've been boiled frogs, and should take some time for self-reflection before engaging in knee-jerk reactions to China's other failings (which I'm not denying btw) whenever social credit is brought up.
    - throwawayq3423 1y ago
      Your credit score in America will never be used to deny your freedom of movement within America or go against you or any of your family members when applying for higher education. It is a fundamentally flawed comparison.
bonestamp2 1y ago
Exactly. Amazon might approve my returns (or not cancel my account) because I buy more than someone else, but they don't share my purchase/return ratio with any third parties.
bobsmooth 1y ago
Exactly. Unless all these companies are sharing trustworthiness data I can make a new account and start fresh. The centralization of "worthiness" is what concerns me.
- DrillShopper 1y ago
  How do I make new Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax account to reset my credit score?
  - bobsmooth 1y ago
    Declare bankruptcy and wait 5 or 10 years.
- abdullahkhalids 1y ago
  If you are doing any sort of financial transactions you will likely need a new debit/credit card.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    And hopefully you've not done anything that is "problematic" there, or ChexSystems will be along to make sure your new bank might want to know not to do business with you, like they did to me, after KeyBank tried to hit me with $405 in overdraft fees in a single day for a series of transactions that, if played chronologically, would never had had me with a balance below $0 at any point, due to "transaction reordering". Chex refused to remove the derogatory note, even after there was a lawsuit and legislation, until I kept escalating with them.
themafia 1y ago
Of course individual people judge each other. In this case a corporation is judging me and then offering those judgments as a service. Quite a difference.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
VerminOctopus1 1y ago
You didn’t read the article. There is no single authority social credit system in China.
KolibriFly 1y ago
Once a single authority controls the "score," though, it stops being just social feedback and becomes structural power

by seydor 1y ago

fmnxl 1y ago

Those "single authorities" you fear already exist in western countries, the mega-corporations that monopolise entire markets. The western system creates an illusion of choice, which those in power have found ways to manipulate. It has become merely a convenient tool for them to exploit the rest of the population, while the "free market" and "democracy" keep them oblivious to it. But whatever people like me say, it will be too hard for most of you to accept the reality.

Swenrekcah 1y ago
You describe a real problem and an attack vector on democracy that is being used. However you make it sound like everything is already lost when it certainly isn’t.
- fmnxl 1y ago
  Thinking of it as an attack vector is the problem with people. I'm saying what you have isn't democracy. Your market isn't free. Voting between the same 2 parties or choosing to buy/rent from the same few mega corporations aren't real choices. Unless you guys start accepting that and find an alternative solution or system, you'll keep digging yourself deeper into the hole you're in. More debt, more wars, more homelessness, more crime, and no future.
  - taffer 1y ago
    I don't know where you are from (I'm really curious though), but where I live there are more than two political parties and more than a few mega corporations to buy or rent from. You seem to have an extremely distorted idea of what live is like in "western countries".
    - fmnxl 1y ago
      I lived in the UK for 10 years, I've also lived in a number of other countries, from democracies, communist (Vietnam), and varying degrees of democratic and economic freedoms. I'm aware there are more than exactly 2 parties in the ballots in many western countries. It's not about the numbers, but whether any of those choices really give the people real alternatives, or just different ways to screw the majority of the people. As you can probably can see from the above interaction, people resort very quickly to ad hominem attacks.
    - lnsru 1y ago
      Can you please share your country of residence? Because in Germany I really don’t feel the choice. There are few political parties, but I don’t feel this variety helps in any way. There are few mega corporations for everything else, just check the list of richest germans. Edit: I might be another troll, but from last few elections I don’t feel any progress. As an engineer I see continuous offshoring of well paid positions to cheaper EU countries. As self employed electrician I see regulatory and tax madness.
ch4s3 1y ago
> But whatever people like me say, it will be too hard for most of you to accept the reality. You seem to think awfully highly of your ability to reason about the world, but I find your claim to be fairly lacking. This all reads like the ramblings of a 19 year old who just discovered Chomsky.
- propagandist 1y ago
  > You seem to think awfully highly of your ability to reason about the world, but I find your claim to be fairly lacking. This all reads like the ramblings of a 19 year old who just discovered Chomsky. Address the argument rather than engaging in ad hominem.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
    Show me the Americans stuck in a black hole where nobody processes their payment, banks won't handle their money, they can't vote, they can't travel, etc. because of their deviations? There are total nutjobs of all walks that are living just fine. There are actual Nazis and commies living just fine. It's a big country. If our whole society already has dystopian social credit it should be easy to find examples.
    - fmnxl 1y ago
      > Show me the Americans stuck in a black hole Stop right there, then you'll see them :) Millions of them
    - esseph 1y ago
      Go into a busy gas station in the US. Ask "Hey, is anybody here a felon?" (Doesn't matter if customer or if they're working there)
      - ch4s3 1y ago
        Only about 6% of Americans have felony records as of 2023.

darthoctopus 1y ago

Did you even read the article? Here is the situation in China: > Here's what's actually happening. As of 2024, there's still no nationwide social credit score in China. Most private scoring systems have been shut down, and local government pilots have largely ended. It’s mainly a fragmented collection of regulatory compliance tools, mostly focused on financial behavior and business oversight. While well over 33 million businesses have been scored under corporate social credit systems, individual scoring remains limited to small pilot cities like Rongcheng. Even there, scoring systems have had "very limited impact" since they've never been elevated to provincial or national levels. Compare that to the situation with, say, credit scores in the US --- wholly run by an oligopoly of three private companies, but fully ingrained into how personal finances work here. At least a publicly run credit score would be held accountable, however indirectly, to voters and the law; and its safety might be treated as a matter of national security, rather than having Equifax and Experian leaking data like clockwork.

gowld 1y ago
You are conflating "social credit score", which hasn't been built out in China (although blacklisting, imprisonment, and torture for wrongthink has been built out), with "financial credit score" which exists in USA via private companies working togther, and "credit reports" which exist in both USA and China. China's is run by the unelected, dictatorial government.
- darthoctopus 1y ago
  perhaps read the actual first paragraph of the article? the whole point of it is that, whether we call it that or not, our privately run reputation scores (including but not limited to credit scores) functionally are social credit scores --- except we've been boiled frogs, and should take some time for self-reflection before engaging in knee-jerk reactions to China's other failings (which I'm not denying btw) whenever social credit is brought up.
  - throwawayq3423 1y ago
    Your credit score in America will never be used to deny your freedom of movement within America or go against you or any of your family members when applying for higher education. It is a fundamentally flawed comparison.

bonestamp2 1y ago

Exactly. Amazon might approve my returns (or not cancel my account) because I buy more than someone else, but they don't share my purchase/return ratio with any third parties.

bobsmooth 1y ago

Exactly. Unless all these companies are sharing trustworthiness data I can make a new account and start fresh. The centralization of "worthiness" is what concerns me.

DrillShopper 1y ago
How do I make new Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax account to reset my credit score?
- bobsmooth 1y ago
  Declare bankruptcy and wait 5 or 10 years.
abdullahkhalids 1y ago
If you are doing any sort of financial transactions you will likely need a new debit/credit card.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  And hopefully you've not done anything that is "problematic" there, or ChexSystems will be along to make sure your new bank might want to know not to do business with you, like they did to me, after KeyBank tried to hit me with $405 in overdraft fees in a single day for a series of transactions that, if played chronologically, would never had had me with a balance below $0 at any point, due to "transaction reordering". Chex refused to remove the derogatory note, even after there was a lawsuit and legislation, until I kept escalating with them.

themafia 1y ago

Of course individual people judge each other. In this case a corporation is judging me and then offering those judgments as a service. Quite a difference.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

VerminOctopus1 1y ago

You didn’t read the article. There is no single authority social credit system in China.

KolibriFly 1y ago

Once a single authority controls the "score," though, it stops being just social feedback and becomes structural power