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I do not agree with Israel's warmongering politics and leadership, but recognising Palestine as a state is incoherent at best and a mistake at worst. What actua

I do not agree with Israel's warmongering politics and leadership, but recognising Palestine as a state is incoherent at best and a mistake at worst. What actually would Belgium recognise as a state here? How will it end the "humanitarian tragedy"?

gattilorenz 1y ago
It’s a way to put political pressure on Israel, not a way to directly end the tragedy. Plus, you can recognise a state without recognizing Hamas as its legitimate government
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Plus, you can recognize a state without recognizing Hamas as its legitimate government Neither the chief of state nor the head of government of the State of Palestine are members of Hamas, so, yeah, people recognizing the State of Palestine (a majority of UN members, the Arab League—of which the State of Palestine is a member state—etc.) generally do not recognize Hamas as its government.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    No they are members of the "PA", formally the PLO who you may remember from such hits as "black september", "bombing the olympics", they have an offshoot killing hundreds of thousands of people in Syria. They recently announced in Arabic that they will keep paying pensions to people who kill Jews, for any reason. If those people died killing Jews, their family members. Oh and in English they denied it [1]. Obviously western press is reporting only ONE of those statements [2]. Remember them? You know, they are generally described as the Palestinian faction who wants peace. Oh, and they're billionnaires (well, the leaders are), which they weren't before getting their government positions. [1] for example: https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/pas-abbas-payments-to-terrorists-will-continue-even-if-we-have-one-cent-left/ https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/pas-abbas-payments-to-terr... [2] Just look at Google news: https://www.google.com/search?q=We+Will+Not+Stop+The+Payments+To+The+Prisoners+And+The+Martyrs%27+Families&client=firefox-b-d https://www.google.com/search?q=We+Will+Not+Stop+The+Payment... (note where the Reuters and Aljazeera links go)
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - NomDePlum 1y ago
    So just let Israel continue to deliberately starve, murder, maim and torture 2 million civilians, including children, is your preferred answer?
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      And.. that's why submissions on this topic are flagged.
      - NomDePlum 1y ago
        Statements of fact are why topics are flagged? I have a much more detailed response in the comments below but it boils down to allowing Israel to continue what the a deliberately doing is not tolerable.
  - gattilorenz 1y ago
    It does not. This came 2 years into a bloody war, and is a response to that. Even the IDF reserve has now hundreds of people protesting against the war, but obviously very much against Hamas. It’s just a statement against Israel’s politics. By your line of reasoning, any previous sign of support for Israel was also a support of the Nakba of 1948.
    - demodulation 1y ago
      [dead]
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - defrost 1y ago
NomDePlum 1y ago
Care to expand on why you believe Palestine can't be a state?
- Propelloni 1y ago
  No, I can't because that's not what I said. But I can expand on what I meant. What we currently have does not fulfil the common criteria for statehood [1]. Oslo-II was supposed to clear those status questions, but I guess that went down the drain a few years ago. Palestine is currently not meeting the Montevideo criteria, therefore recognising it as a state is incoherent. It makes Belgium's government itself appear confused about what a state is and what is not, making it a mistake for Belgium to recognise Palestine as a state. Obviously it would be in good company, over a 100 states already have recognised Palestine over the last few decades, yet, unfathomably, Israel descended further into its apartheid regime. Alas, I guess most people are not as much of a stickler as I am if it comes to definitions of terms outside of math. Of course you can say "to hell with the Montevideo criteria, it's just a convention", but then the Wikipedia article has an apt quote by the Swiss delegation, too: "neither a political unit needs to be recognized to become a state, nor does a state have the obligation to recognize another one. At the same time, neither recognition is enough to create a state, nor does its absence abolish it." HTH [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > Palestine is currently not meeting the Montevideo criteria Yes, not that it necessarily matters (for reasons I’ll get to later), it does, and while you don't present any argument for your claim that it does not, I suspect that rests on inverting the Montevideo conventions explicit statement on territory acquired by force. > Of course you can say "to hell with the Montevideo criteria, it's just a convention" More to the point, it is a convention binding some countries (of which Belgium is not one) to one extreme pole on the question theory of statehood, and it should not be surprising that other nations have views ranging from the opposing pole through a range of positions which balance the considerations of the two poles, informed by various pragmatic and legal factors, including some which were not not norms of international law at the time of the Convention, like the right of self-determination under the UN Charter.
imnotastate 1y ago
I'm thinking what will happen to my account if I say "recognising Israel(or the USA) as a state is incoherent at best and a mistake at worst"

gattilorenz 1y ago

It’s a way to put political pressure on Israel, not a way to directly end the tragedy. Plus, you can recognise a state without recognizing Hamas as its legitimate government

dragonwriter 1y ago
> Plus, you can recognize a state without recognizing Hamas as its legitimate government Neither the chief of state nor the head of government of the State of Palestine are members of Hamas, so, yeah, people recognizing the State of Palestine (a majority of UN members, the Arab League—of which the State of Palestine is a member state—etc.) generally do not recognize Hamas as its government.
- spwa4 1y ago
  No they are members of the "PA", formally the PLO who you may remember from such hits as "black september", "bombing the olympics", they have an offshoot killing hundreds of thousands of people in Syria. They recently announced in Arabic that they will keep paying pensions to people who kill Jews, for any reason. If those people died killing Jews, their family members. Oh and in English they denied it [1]. Obviously western press is reporting only ONE of those statements [2]. Remember them? You know, they are generally described as the Palestinian faction who wants peace. Oh, and they're billionnaires (well, the leaders are), which they weren't before getting their government positions. [1] for example: https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/pas-abbas-payments-to-terrorists-will-continue-even-if-we-have-one-cent-left/ https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/pas-abbas-payments-to-terr... [2] Just look at Google news: https://www.google.com/search?q=We+Will+Not+Stop+The+Payments+To+The+Prisoners+And+The+Martyrs%27+Families&client=firefox-b-d https://www.google.com/search?q=We+Will+Not+Stop+The+Payment... (note where the Reuters and Aljazeera links go)
mytailorisrich 1y ago
[flagged]
- NomDePlum 1y ago
  So just let Israel continue to deliberately starve, murder, maim and torture 2 million civilians, including children, is your preferred answer?
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    And.. that's why submissions on this topic are flagged.
    - NomDePlum 1y ago
      Statements of fact are why topics are flagged? I have a much more detailed response in the comments below but it boils down to allowing Israel to continue what the a deliberately doing is not tolerable.
- gattilorenz 1y ago
  It does not. This came 2 years into a bloody war, and is a response to that. Even the IDF reserve has now hundreds of people protesting against the war, but obviously very much against Hamas. It’s just a statement against Israel’s politics. By your line of reasoning, any previous sign of support for Israel was also a support of the Nakba of 1948.
  - demodulation 1y ago
    [dead]
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - defrost 1y ago

NomDePlum 1y ago

Care to expand on why you believe Palestine can't be a state?

Propelloni 1y ago
No, I can't because that's not what I said. But I can expand on what I meant. What we currently have does not fulfil the common criteria for statehood [1]. Oslo-II was supposed to clear those status questions, but I guess that went down the drain a few years ago. Palestine is currently not meeting the Montevideo criteria, therefore recognising it as a state is incoherent. It makes Belgium's government itself appear confused about what a state is and what is not, making it a mistake for Belgium to recognise Palestine as a state. Obviously it would be in good company, over a 100 states already have recognised Palestine over the last few decades, yet, unfathomably, Israel descended further into its apartheid regime. Alas, I guess most people are not as much of a stickler as I am if it comes to definitions of terms outside of math. Of course you can say "to hell with the Montevideo criteria, it's just a convention", but then the Wikipedia article has an apt quote by the Swiss delegation, too: "neither a political unit needs to be recognized to become a state, nor does a state have the obligation to recognize another one. At the same time, neither recognition is enough to create a state, nor does its absence abolish it." HTH [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Palestine is currently not meeting the Montevideo criteria Yes, not that it necessarily matters (for reasons I’ll get to later), it does, and while you don't present any argument for your claim that it does not, I suspect that rests on inverting the Montevideo conventions explicit statement on territory acquired by force. > Of course you can say "to hell with the Montevideo criteria, it's just a convention" More to the point, it is a convention binding some countries (of which Belgium is not one) to one extreme pole on the question theory of statehood, and it should not be surprising that other nations have views ranging from the opposing pole through a range of positions which balance the considerations of the two poles, informed by various pragmatic and legal factors, including some which were not not norms of international law at the time of the Convention, like the right of self-determination under the UN Charter.

imnotastate 1y ago

I'm thinking what will happen to my account if I say "recognising Israel(or the USA) as a state is incoherent at best and a mistake at worst"