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Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything marked made in China. There are some interesting bits in there from the perspective o

Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything marked made in China. There are some interesting bits in there from the perspective of understanding the manufacturing process, but in terms of the worker conditions and so on, it's nothing new and anyone for whom this is news has presumably been hiding under a rock for the last couple of years and making a concious effort not to think about how certain countries can make things this cheaply. That's not to make light of the conditions, just to say that we're all somewhat complicit and any outrage needs to be matched with action, not just against Apple but against anyone using Foxconn or their peers.

recoiledsnake 14y ago
>That's not to make light of the conditions, just to say that we're all somewhat complicit and any outrage needs to be matched with action, not just against Apple but against anyone using Foxconn or their peers. I presume Apple has the largest clout with Foxconn and can essentially demand better worker conditions from them. Other companies may not have as much leverage, though I agree there needs to be more awareness about things like laptops, XBox, and PS3.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  Apple may be Foxconn's biggest customer but this isn't just Foxconn and it isn't just China. Put this in the perspective it really needs - what percentage of Asia's comparable manufacturing output do you think Apple accounts for? And now consider that it's not just Asia, it's countries all over South and Central America and Eastern Europe. A friend of mine used to be a town planner and part of his job was getting planning permission for new McDonald's sites. When you're pitching to the relevant authorities in the UK, you're under no obligation to reveal who your customer is, just the basic nature of the business (in this case fast food restaurant). But, he said, they would often hint (in a deniable manner obviously) that they were representing Burger King because McDonald's had such a bad reputation. That reputation while largely deserved, distinguished them only from what we'd want them to be like, not from their competitors. Any fast food chain on that scale at a corporate level is largely indistinguishable from McDonald's - it's how they remain competitive. But McDonalds' rep meant that they got the kicking so people would rather have a (morally identical) Burger King in their town. Cosmetically a win perhaps, in reality nothing got any better anywhere. What I'm saying in a very roundabout way, if you boycott Apple, if all you do is move your custom to another organisation who are no better, you've made close to no difference at all. If this really bothers you, then you probably need to look further afield for your next smartphone or PC or tablet than the next big player.
hubb 14y ago
does anyone know of an adroid (or any brand, really) phone that is made in north america or europe?
- bmj 14y ago
  This link (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57389858-1/are-any-smartphones-not-made-in-china/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57389858-1/are-any-smart...) is from earlier in the year, so I'm not sure how applicable it is these days.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    Does anyone have any knowledge of whether Taiwan, Malaysia or Korea are likely to provide better conditions?
    - pm90 14y ago
      Korea is a developed country and does provide good working conditions. I think Samsung phones are Made in Korea? Not sure though... they might be "assembled in Korea"
rimantas 14y ago
And if we all stop buying "Made in Chine" I seriuosly doubt that condition for chines people will improve.
peterwwillis 14y ago
So your philosophy is to ignore the things you don't like? That may help you sleep better at night, but the world doesn't stop turning when you close your eyes. IMHO a better philosophy is accept the hypocrisy of willful indifference or try to make a difference. I don't find willful indifference to be 'action'.
- epo 14y ago
  Big words. The Internet is full of windbags asserting we need to make a difference. Notice how none of these people ever seem to attempt to do so? They usually limit themselves to vacuous back-of-a-cornflake-packet, trendy posturing like this.
  - peterwwillis 14y ago
    ...Which is why the first option in my philosophy is accepting the hypocrisy. I actually am totally fine with slave labor because it's much easier than the latter option: doing something about it.
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      Why's it hypocrisy? Simply doing nothing is only hypocritical if that's contrary to other actions or statements I make.
      - peterwwillis 14y ago
        Doing nothing as an action is hypocritical because it's not really an action. You're declaring you are trying to do something [to rectify that which you object to], but in fact are not doing anything. It's like a politician saying "i'm going on a fact-finding mission to resolve this issue of pollution of the watershed", when in fact they have no intent of finding any facts or solving any issues. But it sounds nice. I guess my point is I find embracing consumerism at the expense of cheap labor to be more honest than refusing to admit my role in not being a solution.
DanBC 14y ago
I agree with what you say. The problem is not limited to one manufacturer, and it is annoying and frustrating that it's framed in that way. Why do people like to jump at one manufacturer while ignoring almost all of the others who have devices built in unsavoury conditions? > not to think about how certain countries can make things this cheaply. Some products - a t-shirt from a budget shop - cost a few dollars. We kind of expect those products to be made in a sweat shop. We hope there's at least some kind of legal regulation. And then there are expensive designer t-shirts - a $150 billionaire boys club t-shirt - and we really hope that these garments are not made in the same sweat shops. We really hope that some of that $150 trickles down to the factory in the form of much better regulation and conditions and pay. Fairtrade-like schemes could work here, if they're done properly. Bob produces widgets. He gets paid $0.20 per widget. I as the end consumer buy a widget for $1.00 If I pay $1.02, that's a 2% increase for me, and if that whole $0.02 goes to Bob he gets $0.22, a 10% increase. Unfortunately, it feels like I pay $1.10, and Bob gets $0.02.
Karunamon 14y ago
..stop buying anything marked made in China. Good luck with that.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I'm not expecting it to happen, I'm just saying if people are that bothered then it needs to run to more than Apple and Foxconn.
k2enemy 14y ago
Boycotting Chinese produced goods in an effort to make Chinese workers better off seems a little misguided. The workers at Foxconn evidently find that job better than the next best job, or having no job at all. There's no doubt that working conditions in China can and should improve, and there's nothing wrong with trying to accelerate the process. But taking money out of the country probably isn't the answer. They are transitioning from a developing country to a developed one, and it is a process that will take time. Coercing the entire country (with boycotts) into improving conditions seems unlikely, and just focusing on one factory will only hurt the workers at that one factory.
mcantelon 14y ago
>Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything marked made in China. ... That's not to make light of the conditions, just to say that we're all somewhat complicit and any outrage needs to be matched with action, not just against Apple but against anyone using Foxconn or their peers. Not buying Chinese is very difficult and the amount of people with the dedication to do this is miniscule and won't make an impact. Shaming the most profitable company in the world into either switching to a more ethical manufacturing partner or pressuring its manufacturing partner to improve working conditions is more likely to succeed. Success with this will increase the odds of success with other Western companies indirectly profiting from bad treatment of workers.
philwelch 14y ago
And then what? Foxconn lays off all their workers and they go back to whatever conditions it was (subsistence farming, maybe?) that led them to decide that working at Foxconn was a better choice for them?
mseebach 14y ago
The last few decades has seen the largest and fastest movement of people from absolute poverty to relative middle class. The last few years has seen factories along the coastal cities of China beginning to compete for labour by raising wages, because many migrant workers are choosing to move back to their inland cities, where the economy is beginning to flourish. No, it's not pretty, and it's going to stay not pretty for a while. But buying goods from China, and buying a lot, is the best foreign aid money can buy.
Tsagadai 14y ago
Boycotts are a fantasy. You would love to think that you can just ethically spend your money and the world will be fine but it is a complete myth. So what if you never buy something marked "Made in China" then I guess Haiti, Vietnam and India must be bastions of freedom and ethical work? In today's modern, integrated economy it is near impossible to buy anything that isn't at least partially made in China. Defence suppliers try to avoid foreign parts for political reasons and even they cannot prevent some components, metals, plastics or raw materials being sourced from China. It is you who are living under a rock if you believe you can truly vote with your wallet. You don't have that choice any more. Even if you go out of your way to avoid all electronics (I guarantee you at least some of those components came from China) and only buy locally sourced, fair-trade hemp clothing you will still be giving money to someone else who is buying almost everything from China. This doesn't just apply to China, it applies to every nation (except, maybe, North Korea, you really need to try hard to find something that they have exported recently). Economies are interconnected and boycotts are feelgood nonsense.

recoiledsnake 14y ago

>That's not to make light of the conditions, just to say that we're all somewhat complicit and any outrage needs to be matched with action, not just against Apple but against anyone using Foxconn or their peers. I presume Apple has the largest clout with Foxconn and can essentially demand better worker conditions from them. Other companies may not have as much leverage, though I agree there needs to be more awareness about things like laptops, XBox, and PS3.

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
Apple may be Foxconn's biggest customer but this isn't just Foxconn and it isn't just China. Put this in the perspective it really needs - what percentage of Asia's comparable manufacturing output do you think Apple accounts for? And now consider that it's not just Asia, it's countries all over South and Central America and Eastern Europe. A friend of mine used to be a town planner and part of his job was getting planning permission for new McDonald's sites. When you're pitching to the relevant authorities in the UK, you're under no obligation to reveal who your customer is, just the basic nature of the business (in this case fast food restaurant). But, he said, they would often hint (in a deniable manner obviously) that they were representing Burger King because McDonald's had such a bad reputation. That reputation while largely deserved, distinguished them only from what we'd want them to be like, not from their competitors. Any fast food chain on that scale at a corporate level is largely indistinguishable from McDonald's - it's how they remain competitive. But McDonalds' rep meant that they got the kicking so people would rather have a (morally identical) Burger King in their town. Cosmetically a win perhaps, in reality nothing got any better anywhere. What I'm saying in a very roundabout way, if you boycott Apple, if all you do is move your custom to another organisation who are no better, you've made close to no difference at all. If this really bothers you, then you probably need to look further afield for your next smartphone or PC or tablet than the next big player.

hubb 14y ago

does anyone know of an adroid (or any brand, really) phone that is made in north america or europe?

bmj 14y ago
This link (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57389858-1/are-any-smartphones-not-made-in-china/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57389858-1/are-any-smart...) is from earlier in the year, so I'm not sure how applicable it is these days.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  Does anyone have any knowledge of whether Taiwan, Malaysia or Korea are likely to provide better conditions?
  - pm90 14y ago
    Korea is a developed country and does provide good working conditions. I think Samsung phones are Made in Korea? Not sure though... they might be "assembled in Korea"

rimantas 14y ago

And if we all stop buying "Made in Chine" I seriuosly doubt that condition for chines people will improve.

peterwwillis 14y ago

So your philosophy is to ignore the things you don't like? That may help you sleep better at night, but the world doesn't stop turning when you close your eyes. IMHO a better philosophy is accept the hypocrisy of willful indifference or try to make a difference. I don't find willful indifference to be 'action'.

epo 14y ago
Big words. The Internet is full of windbags asserting we need to make a difference. Notice how none of these people ever seem to attempt to do so? They usually limit themselves to vacuous back-of-a-cornflake-packet, trendy posturing like this.
- peterwwillis 14y ago
  ...Which is why the first option in my philosophy is accepting the hypocrisy. I actually am totally fine with slave labor because it's much easier than the latter option: doing something about it.
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    Why's it hypocrisy? Simply doing nothing is only hypocritical if that's contrary to other actions or statements I make.
    - peterwwillis 14y ago
      Doing nothing as an action is hypocritical because it's not really an action. You're declaring you are trying to do something [to rectify that which you object to], but in fact are not doing anything. It's like a politician saying "i'm going on a fact-finding mission to resolve this issue of pollution of the watershed", when in fact they have no intent of finding any facts or solving any issues. But it sounds nice. I guess my point is I find embracing consumerism at the expense of cheap labor to be more honest than refusing to admit my role in not being a solution.

DanBC 14y ago

I agree with what you say. The problem is not limited to one manufacturer, and it is annoying and frustrating that it's framed in that way. Why do people like to jump at one manufacturer while ignoring almost all of the others who have devices built in unsavoury conditions? > not to think about how certain countries can make things this cheaply. Some products - a t-shirt from a budget shop - cost a few dollars. We kind of expect those products to be made in a sweat shop. We hope there's at least some kind of legal regulation. And then there are expensive designer t-shirts - a $150 billionaire boys club t-shirt - and we really hope that these garments are not made in the same sweat shops. We really hope that some of that $150 trickles down to the factory in the form of much better regulation and conditions and pay. Fairtrade-like schemes could work here, if they're done properly. Bob produces widgets. He gets paid $0.20 per widget. I as the end consumer buy a widget for $1.00 If I pay $1.02, that's a 2% increase for me, and if that whole $0.02 goes to Bob he gets $0.22, a 10% increase. Unfortunately, it feels like I pay $1.10, and Bob gets $0.02.

Karunamon 14y ago

..stop buying anything marked made in China. Good luck with that.

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
I'm not expecting it to happen, I'm just saying if people are that bothered then it needs to run to more than Apple and Foxconn.

k2enemy 14y ago

Boycotting Chinese produced goods in an effort to make Chinese workers better off seems a little misguided. The workers at Foxconn evidently find that job better than the next best job, or having no job at all. There's no doubt that working conditions in China can and should improve, and there's nothing wrong with trying to accelerate the process. But taking money out of the country probably isn't the answer. They are transitioning from a developing country to a developed one, and it is a process that will take time. Coercing the entire country (with boycotts) into improving conditions seems unlikely, and just focusing on one factory will only hurt the workers at that one factory.

mcantelon 14y ago

>Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything marked made in China. ... That's not to make light of the conditions, just to say that we're all somewhat complicit and any outrage needs to be matched with action, not just against Apple but against anyone using Foxconn or their peers. Not buying Chinese is very difficult and the amount of people with the dedication to do this is miniscule and won't make an impact. Shaming the most profitable company in the world into either switching to a more ethical manufacturing partner or pressuring its manufacturing partner to improve working conditions is more likely to succeed. Success with this will increase the odds of success with other Western companies indirectly profiting from bad treatment of workers.

philwelch 14y ago

And then what? Foxconn lays off all their workers and they go back to whatever conditions it was (subsistence farming, maybe?) that led them to decide that working at Foxconn was a better choice for them?

mseebach 14y ago

The last few decades has seen the largest and fastest movement of people from absolute poverty to relative middle class. The last few years has seen factories along the coastal cities of China beginning to compete for labour by raising wages, because many migrant workers are choosing to move back to their inland cities, where the economy is beginning to flourish. No, it's not pretty, and it's going to stay not pretty for a while. But buying goods from China, and buying a lot, is the best foreign aid money can buy.

Tsagadai 14y ago

Boycotts are a fantasy. You would love to think that you can just ethically spend your money and the world will be fine but it is a complete myth. So what if you never buy something marked "Made in China" then I guess Haiti, Vietnam and India must be bastions of freedom and ethical work? In today's modern, integrated economy it is near impossible to buy anything that isn't at least partially made in China. Defence suppliers try to avoid foreign parts for political reasons and even they cannot prevent some components, metals, plastics or raw materials being sourced from China. It is you who are living under a rock if you believe you can truly vote with your wallet. You don't have that choice any more. Even if you go out of your way to avoid all electronics (I guarantee you at least some of those components came from China) and only buy locally sourced, fair-trade hemp clothing you will still be giving money to someone else who is buying almost everything from China. This doesn't just apply to China, it applies to every nation (except, maybe, North Korea, you really need to try hard to find something that they have exported recently). Economies are interconnected and boycotts are feelgood nonsense.