3 ms·

The train of thought is “what is everyone using? I’ll use that too”

by felipeccastro 1y ago

gigatree 1y ago
If everyone made decisions for themselves instead of following everyone else we’d be so much better off, in all areas.
- nightski 1y ago
  This is a little disingenuous because unfortunately you can't make decisions on technical merits alone. It takes a lot of resources to keep these projects thriving and up to date. You almost have to go with options where these resources have been deployed, even if they are terrible sometimes.
koonsolo 1y ago
This coupled with the fact that "web development" now means anything going from a content rich website like a blog, towards some e-shop, all the way to complex applications like ux design, video editing, etc. It's pretty absurd to have such a broad range of web solutions, and think the same solution can cover everything.
- fragmede 1y ago
  Why? Microsoft's GUI framework as well as Apple's covered plenty of use cases before the rise of the web browser.
  - koonsolo 1y ago
    Then why did HTML became so popular if win32 or MFC were so great?
    - fragmede 1y ago
      Because it solved different problems. CSS is terrible, but deployment simplicity and distribution channel were more powerful than how shitty HTML is for making GUIs. The fact that MFC was owned by Microsoft didn't help either.
      - koonsolo 1y ago
        Why would you make GUI's with HTML? Its main use was for content, not applications. Hyper Text Markup Language. So you agree both solve different problems. Well, those are 2 use cases of front-end right now.
    - motorest 1y ago
      > Then why did HTML became so popular if win32 or MFC were so great? One of the factors is that web dev pushes for a complete separation of concerns, and thus allows frontend developers to specialize in front end development. Therefore it becomes far easier to hire someone to do frontend work with a webdev background than a win32/MFC background. Number of applicants is also a big factor. There is far more demand for webdev than pure GUI programming. You can only hire people who show up, and if no one shows up then you need to scramble. Frontend development is also by far the most expensive part of a project. In projects which use low-level native frameworks you are forced to hire a team for each target platform. Adopting technologies that implement GUIs with webpages running in a WebView allow projects to halve the cost. This is also why technologies like React Native shine. Also, apps like Visual Studio Code prove that webview-based apps can be both nice to look at and be performant. It's not capabilities. It's mainly the economics.
      - koonsolo 1y ago
        In the win32/MFC days, there was no "front-end developer". There was only HTML and content creators writing it. Then there came small web applications, and still no "front-end developers", since functionality could only work on the server. It's only when AJAX was introduced in the mid 2000's that you could start to talk about "front-end developers". By that time, win32 and MFC was old. We had Java, C# with .net framework, etc.
motorest 1y ago
> The train of thought is “what is everyone using? I’ll use that too” I'm not so sure about that. We're seeing Next.js being pushed as the successor of create-react-app even in react.dev[1], which as a premise is kind of stupid. There is something wrong definitely going on. [1] https://react.dev/learn/creating-a-react-app https://react.dev/learn/creating-a-react-app
- whstl 1y ago
  It was interesting handling frontend interviews recently. We do a 30-min tops exercise where you create a React project to show how to use useState and useEffect, etc. I help with whatever command they want to use and allow Google/ChatGPT. More than half of the candidates had no idea how to use React without Next.js, and some argued it was impossible, even after I told them the opposite.
  - fragmede 1y ago
    What are you really testing for? That sounds like a bad interview.
    - recursive 1y ago
      Basic react experience presumably. As a first approximation, it seems like every possible interview sounds like a bad interview to someone. What has worked well for you?
      - fragmede 1y ago
        Seems more like a test on random React minutiae. Like, let's take some framework, take away some random piece. How well do you know the area around that random piece we just removed? Frameworks are large and gnarly (or there isn't enough to them). Expecting a candidate to be lucky and know random implementation details in the area that happened to be picked doesn't seem like you'd select for anything other than luck. For me, lately, the interview question is "here's code that ChatGPT generated for (previous interview question as related to the role we're hiring for that we could do)", what's wrong with it? What do now? (ChatGPT may or may not have actually generated the code in question.)
port11 1y ago
This is only partially true. For example, with React Native even the core team now tells you to "just use Expo", as if relegating all responsibility to a project maintained by a for-profit that thinks 2 weeks is enough time to beta test a Major release. It's also dismissive of market forces, i.e. developers have to pay bills and therefore are easier to hire if they know the skillset that is in wide use. I've never worked or interviewed a single senior that wanted to use Next.

The train of thought is “what is everyone using? I’ll use that too”

gigatree 1y ago

If everyone made decisions for themselves instead of following everyone else we’d be so much better off, in all areas.

nightski 1y ago
This is a little disingenuous because unfortunately you can't make decisions on technical merits alone. It takes a lot of resources to keep these projects thriving and up to date. You almost have to go with options where these resources have been deployed, even if they are terrible sometimes.

koonsolo 1y ago

This coupled with the fact that "web development" now means anything going from a content rich website like a blog, towards some e-shop, all the way to complex applications like ux design, video editing, etc. It's pretty absurd to have such a broad range of web solutions, and think the same solution can cover everything.

fragmede 1y ago
Why? Microsoft's GUI framework as well as Apple's covered plenty of use cases before the rise of the web browser.
- koonsolo 1y ago
  Then why did HTML became so popular if win32 or MFC were so great?
  - fragmede 1y ago
    Because it solved different problems. CSS is terrible, but deployment simplicity and distribution channel were more powerful than how shitty HTML is for making GUIs. The fact that MFC was owned by Microsoft didn't help either.
    - koonsolo 1y ago
      Why would you make GUI's with HTML? Its main use was for content, not applications. Hyper Text Markup Language. So you agree both solve different problems. Well, those are 2 use cases of front-end right now.
  - motorest 1y ago
    > Then why did HTML became so popular if win32 or MFC were so great? One of the factors is that web dev pushes for a complete separation of concerns, and thus allows frontend developers to specialize in front end development. Therefore it becomes far easier to hire someone to do frontend work with a webdev background than a win32/MFC background. Number of applicants is also a big factor. There is far more demand for webdev than pure GUI programming. You can only hire people who show up, and if no one shows up then you need to scramble. Frontend development is also by far the most expensive part of a project. In projects which use low-level native frameworks you are forced to hire a team for each target platform. Adopting technologies that implement GUIs with webpages running in a WebView allow projects to halve the cost. This is also why technologies like React Native shine. Also, apps like Visual Studio Code prove that webview-based apps can be both nice to look at and be performant. It's not capabilities. It's mainly the economics.
    - koonsolo 1y ago
      In the win32/MFC days, there was no "front-end developer". There was only HTML and content creators writing it. Then there came small web applications, and still no "front-end developers", since functionality could only work on the server. It's only when AJAX was introduced in the mid 2000's that you could start to talk about "front-end developers". By that time, win32 and MFC was old. We had Java, C# with .net framework, etc.

motorest 1y ago

> The train of thought is “what is everyone using? I’ll use that too” I'm not so sure about that. We're seeing Next.js being pushed as the successor of create-react-app even in react.dev[1], which as a premise is kind of stupid. There is something wrong definitely going on. [1] https://react.dev/learn/creating-a-react-app https://react.dev/learn/creating-a-react-app

whstl 1y ago
It was interesting handling frontend interviews recently. We do a 30-min tops exercise where you create a React project to show how to use useState and useEffect, etc. I help with whatever command they want to use and allow Google/ChatGPT. More than half of the candidates had no idea how to use React without Next.js, and some argued it was impossible, even after I told them the opposite.
- fragmede 1y ago
  What are you really testing for? That sounds like a bad interview.
  - recursive 1y ago
    Basic react experience presumably. As a first approximation, it seems like every possible interview sounds like a bad interview to someone. What has worked well for you?
    - fragmede 1y ago
      Seems more like a test on random React minutiae. Like, let's take some framework, take away some random piece. How well do you know the area around that random piece we just removed? Frameworks are large and gnarly (or there isn't enough to them). Expecting a candidate to be lucky and know random implementation details in the area that happened to be picked doesn't seem like you'd select for anything other than luck. For me, lately, the interview question is "here's code that ChatGPT generated for (previous interview question as related to the role we're hiring for that we could do)", what's wrong with it? What do now? (ChatGPT may or may not have actually generated the code in question.)

port11 1y ago

This is only partially true. For example, with React Native even the core team now tells you to "just use Expo", as if relegating all responsibility to a project maintained by a for-profit that thinks 2 weeks is enough time to beta test a Major release. It's also dismissive of market forces, i.e. developers have to pay bills and therefore are easier to hire if they know the skillset that is in wide use. I've never worked or interviewed a single senior that wanted to use Next.