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That doesn't work very well. If you have a concern you need to voice, you can't rely on waiting for being consulted. I'm really not interested in a system where
by jraph 1y ago
That doesn't work very well. If you have a concern you need to voice, you can't rely on waiting for being consulted. I'm really not interested in a system where you are not allowed to speak up.
Police is supposedly for protecting people's interests, ideally.
Naively, as a citizen I want to be protected from crime and I'm interested in Europol, experts on crime investigation across Europe, getting what they need to do their work and expressing their needs.
Of course I'm also not interested in privacy being thrown away.
Those two things apparently clash, and a healthy debate can help find an acceptable solution.
- AlecSchueler 1y agoI actually largely agree with you but > Police is supposedly for protecting people's interests, ideally. Police is supposedly for enforcing the law regardless of whose interests that serve. Making that enforcement easier isn't always a net positive for society, even when the laws themselves are just.
- jraph 1y agoThe law supposedly protects the people's interest. Ideally. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world and I agree with you that in practice, law enforcement isn't always a net positive.
- Saline9515 1y agoPolice has its own subset of incentives and goals, and is not a transparent institution protecting citizens. It is made of humans that are prone to corruption, power abuse, ideological bias, and so on.
- jraph 1y agoPolice [...] is not a transparent institution protecting citizens It's its role, theoretically (I don't know about transparent, but protecting citizens for sure). Of course, the reality is not ideal.
- Saline9515 1y agoProblem is that theory very commonly doesn't match reality when dealing with humans. Police may prefer to suppress freedom to achieve its goal, which is crime reduction. Or it may stop caring about difficult or dangerous problems (say, drug dealing cartels), and reorient into harassing the civilian population for petty things, such as policing distasteful memes on the internet.
- Tostino 1y agoMust be nice to have any trust in your police forces.
- jraph 1y agoThat's not what I'm saying! :-) Unfortunately, I don't have much of this. I wish I could! Happy you wrote this so I could clarify this point.
- Saline9515 1y agoA country where police decides the laws is called a police state. Do you feel that citizen's rights are well respected in such places?
- jraph 1y agoAlready addressed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45101127#45102093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45101127#45102093: We are not talking about power or decision making, we are talking about expression. I'm really confused as to how some people here misunderstand this discussion as being about giving law-making power to the police. I'm of course against a police state. edit: I'm not even defending Europol or what they actually do, there are things they do I most certainly don't like.
- Saline9515 1y agoIf police feels confident enough to "express" the need to overthrow basic constitutional rights, you should be worried about how it is managed and what's coming for you. After all, they are the guys with the big sticks who make everyone obey.
- AAAAaccountAAAA 1y agoPolice forces in Europe have been lobbying for this kind of measures so eagerly that it can even turn out to be a national security issue, I fear. What if the police will end up siding with Russian and/or Chinese invaders, or with a some kind of domestic extremist movement, attempting to set up an authoritarian regime.
- raxxorraxor 1y agoWell, you don't have much say in the EU as a citizen. Its judiciary isn't accessible to you.
- jraph 1y agoWe are taking about expression, not decision power, in this thread.