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> Why is this app even needed/desired? The methods ICE is using currently to detain people for deportation look a lot like secret police tactics for disappeari

• philipallstar 1y ago
  > Whether you’re here legally or not, no one deserves the secret police tactics that fly in the face of the principles of limited government and freedom of movement. Committing a crime might well result in your movement being curtailed, and addressing crime is definitely within the remit of limited government.
  • footy 1y ago
    Immigration violations are a civil matter in the United States,though, not a criminal one. You know. Back when "the rule of law" was a thing.
    • mothballed 1y ago
      Also consider ICE pretends they have no choice, when in fact congress grants them unilateral power of parole. They can just make someone legal with a magic wand, but pretend like it's all out of their hands.
    • 9991 1y ago
      What does that mean in practical terms? You can ask illegal immigrants politely to leave, and if they don't then that's it?
      • immibis 1y ago
        You (or the government) can ask a judge to order the civilian you don't like to leave. If the judge agrees, they have to leave. If the CYDL doesn't leave, you can ask a judge to order the police (or even you) to arrest and deport them. If the judge agrees, the police (or even you) can arrest and deport them. If you don't have a judge's order to kidnap the person, then it's illegal by default.
      • malfist 1y ago
        There are more than a few options between politely asking them to leave and black bagging people off the streets by roving bands of masked, armed people with no identification
      • notmyjob 1y ago
        It means you get deported rather than going to jail and you don’t get a public defender before being deported. There is no “due process” as in criminal law.
      • jimz 1y ago
        The concept of "illegal immigrant" is not a legal term and so it doesn't actually have any substantive meaning. One can accrue unlawful presence, one can be present with illegal status (when you do something your visa doesn't allow), but both of those are curable to varying degrees, the former subject to tolling (and also, doesn't count until one turns 18), the latter almost always because of the underfunded and overcomplicated bureaucratic morass that USCIS operates under. But the common language of 'illegal immigrants" is exceedingly vague because it contradicts how the law its drawn up. One is not considered an immigrant legally until one has some sort of status that allows them to adjust their status to permanent residency. Before 1970 this was basically almost everybody. Today it's virtually nobody when they first enter the country. To be an immigrant is by definition to be legally present. The moral panic is actually based on a conflation between two distinct categories of people: those who entered the country without inspection (EWI) and those who are out of status and have yet to cure their status issue. Inspection doesn't literally mean what it means in the dictionary, by the way, it's a legal fiction. A wave-through is considered inspection even though one doesn't get their passport stamped. Parole can in some cases be considered the predicate that leads to inspection (advance parole establishes the inspection element that turns someone with no status into someone eligible for a green card) or it doesn't in other cases, although in those cases one is not legally considered to have been admitted into the country. Confused yet? Don't worry, DHS lawyers get confused over this as well, and even federal judges are frequently confused. Texas v. US was mooted but if it wasn't mooted, the petition actually reversed the terms of art which makes the petition gibberish if it reaches the merit stage. Either way, whether someone is out of status or have status is not something that can be determined outside of a court and frequently, both administrative appeals and adjudication in actual Article III courts. ICE agents are not lawyers, they're not even technically cops, and they sure as hell can't tell the minutiae of immigration law where every word you think you know the definition of, you actually likely don't. One collateral attack that was commonly seen was that the person was actually a US citizen who never knew they were since depending on when you were born the criteria through which you acquire citizenship even while born overseas can differ dramatically. And by that I mean in the 1970s the criteria went under several changes that requires a whole new inquiry that requires some serious genealogical research to determine. This is a huge pain in the ass even if you know about the law, and ICE agents aren't lawyers and certainly aren't legal historians, but either way as a matter of statutory interpretation and application ICE agents making the determination would go far beyond what they're legally allowed to do. You and me and everyone else who aren't speaking for the government can use shorthands, but ICE agents can't while they're on the job. Who's "illegal" as a matter of law is not something ICE can actually decide, but they operate under presumptions that can't be rebutted since once they ship you out of the country, that's it. You can't get a visa to respond to a lawsuit. It used to be something that one can get parole for, but not anymore. Most no-shows in immigration court happen because of unavailability or because of lack of proper notice given. DHS OIG audits turn up this kind of problem all the time. I can believe that Trump and Miller having no clue about any of this, but the lawyers working for DHS? If they don't know, they're not competent for the position. Interestingly native born Americans actually don't have a definitive and mandatorily accepted way to prove their citizenship. ICE routinely without evidence treat real documents as fake. You are not required to even have a state ID or driver's license, and neither is dispositive of status, and neither is a social security card. God forbid you were born at home with a midwife since many don't have birth certificates that conform to the more standardized forms of today. Most Americans don't have a passport. If you naturalize, at least the same agency will give you a certificate of citizenship that attest to your status. A green card likewise attests to your legal permanent residency status. But DHS doesn't issue such documents to native-born citizens, and routinely rejects documents issued by other agencies. ICE deports US citizens every year and we only have a limited set of data on how many. If you manage to make it back, you can't even sue ICE. You'd have to sue the municipality that held you for ICE based on what amounts to a hunch, which is not evidence. Voluntarily cooperating with ICE almost inevitably will lead to lawsuits, settlements, and once in a while, the bankruptcy of the city. Thanks to indemnity clauses, local cops are the last to get hit. And all that is really unnecessary. The country was founded with open borders and while we had a lot of problems, immigration was not viewed as a problem serious enough for the federal government to specifically intervene in in the harshest and most racist way possible for 100 years. If you want both the economic benefits of immigration and also want immigrants to truly be seasonal workers voluntarily, get rid of the system and that will happen. Militarizing the border forced people into choosing which side they want to be on. I'm old enough to remember driving from Vermont to Montreal to hang out with my cousin at McGill for weekend brunches and smoked meats with just a driver's license - not even one issued in Vermont, but California - and the border checkpoint in New Hampshire - the only one in the state - being unstaffed most of the time. The southern border was like that until the 70s. Most Americans and Europeans don't have to contend with visas since visa waiver programs cover the so-called "First world nations" and some well-to-do ex-colonies and so the problem is an abstraction to them. In reality, it's a reality based on abstractions. Either way, since "illegal immigrants" are not a thing as a legally meaningful descriptor, there's no actual answer. Feel free to read this pretty good summation of the specific problems that involve the constitution though, it essentially covers up to Kerry v. Din (2015). https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1936&context=facpub#page=12.24 https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=19...
    • themgt 1y ago
      You're missing a major component of the strategy actually being pursued, which is worth understanding whether or not you support the policy: U.S. Attorney Bill Essayli pulled together an all-star federal taskforce comprising agents from five federal law enforcement agencies—including ICE and the FBI—all working out of an office in Los Angeles. When an illegal alien with a prior deportation is inevitably arrested, upon identification and booking into the local jail, the taskforce seeks a federal criminal warrant—signed by a federal judge—for felony re-entry under 8 USC §1326. By using available criminal databases to find illegal aliens who were arrested and jailed the day before, the team quickly learns of each new offender. Then, a federal warrant is served on local officials, who obviously won’t buck a federal judge’s warrant. That warrant requires local officials to hand over the illegal criminal alien to ICE. The critical point is that reentry after having already been deported is a felony, and by getting a federal criminal warrant the government can legally force state and local compliance (which they cannot in a civil matter). That is the rule of law as it stands. It also sets up a dynamic of high-profile "heads I win tails you lose" fights with state & local officials who don't want to comply, providing grist for the base. https://www.heritage.org/border-security/commentary/sanctuary-cities-forced-comply-federal-immigration-rules-due-innovative https://www.heritage.org/border-security/commentary/sanctuar...
      • deleted 1y ago
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      • mothballed 1y ago
        Pretty much all illegal immigrant males 18-25 commit a felony by not registering for the draft. They are required to do so within 30 days of becoming eligible . You need a valid active visa to be exempted.
        • lupusreal 1y ago
          American citizens don't take draft registration seriously, so obviously nobody else does either. You could arrest millions for that.
          • 1y ago
    • deleted 1y ago
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    • UrineSqueegee 1y ago
      This isn't true. improper entry is a felony if its a repeat offense.
      • jimz 1y ago
        Re-entry after having been removed can be a felony. But with ICE favoring expedited removal, these cases aren't ending up in Article III courts and in turn, without going through the judicial process ICE basically have made it next to impossible for this law to actually get triggered. There are a lot of laws on the books that end up unenforceable because the government is that meme of the kid sticking a stick into the front wheel of the bicycle he's riding. This is one of them. (Also, the purposeful-availment test for personal jurisdiction in copyright cases is built on top of a set of facts that is established by geolocating Cloudflare IPs, and in turn, what was once a vague but at least potentially applicable law now has been turned into something that if merits of a contested case actually gets reached, basically no foreign defendant would be under the court's jurisdiction, because of how CDNs work. Since there's no visa for "responding to lawsuits" and in fact, it doesn't even look like proper service was conducted, meaning that the law is made ultimately on top of default judgments to foreign John Does. I have no idea whether this is a result of incompetence or short-term thinking, but that's where we are. The moment the law is applied correctly it becomes self-nullifying thanks to the facts. Same idea here.)
  • close04 1y ago
    > Committing a crime Is this reasonably and sensibly established before applying the secret police tactics on the respective person or the ones around them?
    • mexicocitinluez 1y ago
      Of course not: https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-teen-detained-ice-after-mistaken-arrest-detention/story?id=122113802 https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-teen-detained-ice-after-mi...
  • eru 1y ago
    Everyone deserves a fair trial. Whether someone committed a crime or not is for a judge to decide.
    • bitlax 1y ago
      [flagged]
      • nxobject 1y ago
        Edit: per MereInterest's reply below, OP edited their comment. That's blatantly false: even when civil cases are involved (which is where immigration law lives, not criminal law), non-citizens have recourse to habeas corpus petitions, etc.
        • MereInterest 1y ago
          To any other readers, if nxobject’s post reads as a non-sequitur, it is because bitlax edited their post from its original “Only applies to citizens.” to “ Citizens certainly do.” shortly after posting.
      • immibis 1y ago
        How do you know if they're a citizen if there hasn't been a trial?
      • mariusor 1y ago
        Do you have a citation for this, or are you just telling us what you think that the situation should be? And if it's the former, have you actually considered the ramifications of what it would entail? Regular tourists in the US are not citizens. What would happen to them if they'd receive no protection from the law?
      • malfist 1y ago
        Well, I think you're not a citizen so I'm going to deport you to Uganda. Since I think you're not a citizen, you don't get a trial.
      • 1y ago
  • mexicocitinluez 1y ago
    > Committing a crime might well result in your movement being curtailed What about when you don't commit crimes? https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-teen-detained-ice-after-mistaken-arrest-detention/story?id=122113802 https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-teen-detained-ice-after-mi... I do love how you felt the need to comment about something that very obviously isn't in contention as if it somehow defends the actions of this current administration.
    • philipallstar 1y ago
      It definitely is in contention.
      • mexicocitinluez 1y ago
        No, it's not. Nobody is saying "You can't deport criminals". Literally nobody.
  • Fnoord 1y ago
    This is about the USA but here in The Netherlands the police force must apply the principles of proportionality and subsidiarity [2]. According to these articles, it also forms a basis for EU laws. Quoting: "The concept of proportionality is used as a criterion of fairness and justice in statutory interpretation processes, especially in constitutional law, as a logical method intended to assist in discerning the correct balance between the restriction imposed by a corrective measure and the severity of the nature of the prohibited act. Within criminal law, the concept is used to convey the idea that the punishment of an offender should fit the crime. [..]" And: "the principle that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed at a more local level" Apply that to the national guard being rolled out, and apply that to masked police officers destroying the windows of a car. There is no probable cause here. You cannot be like that is a person of color I will detain them because they're illegal. You cannot even pull over a random person like that. Why not? Because the crime of being illegal is not proportional to the violence being used. Now, if they were a murderer, then yes. But then they're a murderer who is also illegal. Not the fact that they're illegal itself is the dangerous factor. Moreover, these illegals actually benefit the economy as they're HR. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity
    • philipallstar 1y ago
      > You cannot be like that is a person of color I will detain them because they're illegal I'm not saying that, whatever "person of color" is. Plenty of legal e.g. hispanics, and plenty of illegal white people in America.
  • LocalH 1y ago
    > Committing a crime might well result in your movement being curtailed, and addressing crime is definitely within the remit of limited government. I expect televised footage of perp walks for the business owners and CEOs who hire "illegal immigrants" then. Otherwise, the point is cruelty rather than law and order.
  • const_cast 1y ago
    You can't pull the "well they're criminals!!1!" card. They still have rights. Do you know what we call countries where criminals don't have rights? Authoritarian. Wake. Up.
• zimpenfish 1y ago
  > The methods ICE is using currently to detain people for deportation look a lot like secret police tactics for disappearing folks You could argue that this is also a trial run to gauge the American public and governmental tolerance for actual secret police on the streets disappearing people (both depressingly high, it turns out.)
• Gabriel54 1y ago
  We should be clear that many (most?) of the immigration raids you are describing are taking place in cities that have explicitly stated that they will not cooperate with the federal government regarding immigration, meaning that anyone in these cities who interacts with the police or justice system (generally speaking, in most cases) will not be reported for being in the country without documentation. This means that the federal government has fewer means of detaining individuals without documentation in a safe manner, even those convicted of serious crimes. We see the result of these policies now.
  • malnourish 1y ago
    Is that supposed to absolve the methods ICE uses in those places?
  • jonstewart 1y ago
    That’s a nonsequitur. My neighborhood in DC, with high immigrant population, has a lower crime than Capitol Hill, with a far lower immigrant population. DC has a lower crime rate than the places that are sending federal agents here.
  • soganess 1y ago
    NO we shouldn't. You are defending playground rules "why are you making me punch you" with people's lives.
    • Gabriel54 1y ago
      Detaining and deporting individuals who are in a foreign (to them) country without documentation is not "punching them".
      • soganess 1y ago
        "Why are you making me punch you" is a stand-in for the kind of broken logic a child uses on a playground. It isn't about actually punching people (although many have been assualted by ICE). Instead, it is about deploying maliciously faulty logic in defense of bad action. Think of it as a cousin to the "he's no angel" style defense of bad acts.
• pjc50 1y ago
  It's the next iteration of the War On Drugs. One the one hand, you have maybe-semi-reasonable arguments about law and social problems. On the other, you have extremely violent enforcement, carried out in discriminatory ways, which will also end up affecting the entirely innocent. While producing a huge prison population for private profit. The war on drugs brought all sorts of search and seizure, including forfeiture (effectively a war on cash allowing the police to steal people's money). The war on terror brought mass surveillance and much more intrusive searches at airports. The war on immigration will bring "papers please" to American citizens, as well as the ability to disappear inconvenient public speakers.