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On the other hand, maybe the original motto really is a perfect motto for programmers. It nicely exemplifies the inadvertantly silly results of the DIY, liberta

On the other hand, maybe the original motto really is a perfect motto for programmers. It nicely exemplifies the inadvertantly silly results of the DIY, libertarian, anti-establishment spirit of so many programmers (Who needs experts, knowledge of history, or formal training when you have the internet??) who inexplicably start blogs in the apparent, equally inexplicable belief that the world needs to hear their thoughts on things they know nothing about.

jraph 1y ago
That's quite the uncharitable view. They explicitly put a humble disclaimer that they don't actually understand Latin. What you see as "belief that the world needs to hear their thoughts" might be "willingness to share". It's nice that people engage with the unknown (here, Latin). That's how one learns. There's also nothing wrong with sharing this process. The result is obviously wrong here, and I would have been too shy to put it in the title of a blog post, but this doesn't have dramatic consequences. We are far from tech bros arrogantly imposing their shit tech to the world here.
- globnomulous 1y ago
  It's entirely uncharitable. I don't care about the author's humility. I will spare not one iota of sympathy or empathy for spreaders of AI slop or for the embarrassing naivete of writing a motto in a language one doesn't know and sharing it publicly with the expectation that it's an idea/expression worth discussing. Both deserve to be labeled and treated uncharitably. I wish Hacker News had policies that squash this kind of post before it can reach the front page. Nobody needs to read some guy's clueless thought diary, and the oxygen these submissions consume on HN are stolen from better pieces of writing that actually deserve attention.
  - jraph 1y ago
    I won't completely blame you, I guess the AI hype needs some deserved hard push back. If that's what will make people realize it's not actually cool.
    - globnomulous 1y ago
      Thanks for this. Yeah, it's partly that. But do I accomplish anything worthwhile by being a total jerk and making a humiliating example of someone who means well? Probably not. I don't feel good after I write a takedown, and when the target reads my comments, I doubt he does either. Generally I try not to contribute to the web's tendency to stoke primitive, violent emotions, like anger, fear, and hate, but sometimes I care more about fighting the internet's ugly, dangerous tendency to 'democratize' by letting bad ideas and ignorance spread, choking out the fewer, smaller, less charismatic people who know what they're talking about (I'm not referring to myself). Unlike most programmers, I'm quite sure the world would largely be a better, more just place without the 'open' culture of the internet.
      - jraph 1y ago
        > I'm quite sure the world would largely be a better, more just place without the 'open' culture of the internet. This intrigues me a bit. In particular, what do you mean by the 'open' culture of the internet? Is there more to that than the "dangerous tendency to 'democratize' by letting bad ideas and ignorance spread" you mention earlier?
        globnomulous 1y ago
        That comment was an unclear allusion to ideas I've absorbed from Jaron Lanier, plus a bit of my own elitism. Regarding the elitism: I'm not a free-speech absolutist; I don't prize individual, positive freedom over negative freedom (Most Americans do); and I'd prefer for gatekeepers largely to restrict and control the levers of cultural power. The internet, as a market-driven radical democracy, demostrates all of radical democracy's worst excesses and vulgarity, especially its tendency to vest power in charismatic charlatans skilled in stoking the primitive, violent emotions I mentioned above. Regarding 'open' culture: Jaron Lanier, father of VR, has written extensively on this. He'd be a much better ambassador for his ideas than I can be, and I recommend his books, essays, and interviews in the strongest possible terms. Lanier makes a strong case that the free-and-open culture of the internet ("information wants to be free") -- exemplified, for instance, in Napster, open source, and the practice of not putting up paywalls on news websites -- has been overwhelmingly negative and destructive. To take a few examples: it has largely destroyed music as a viable career; it has cheapened information, because somethings that's free has no value; it has led directly to the advertising-driven hellscape that the internet has become; and it has served only to augment the power of the already powerful, because only the rich are in a position to marshal the kinds of resources that one needs in order, quite literally, to mine data and find profit in it. Lanier has also been a major critic of the AI craze. Related to both of these: I'm a strong believer that the interconnectedness of the internet is dangerous, unsustainable, and by itself causing the US to drift towards the cultural and political equivalent of a nuclear meltdown, in the form of something like a fascist takeover. Connecting everybody on the internet has produced, I think, something like a feeling of cultural and political claustrophobia. People are going crazy because they're sharing mental space with too many other people. Anyhow, that's probably more than enough, and I'm not sure it's entirely cogent or coherent. Thanks for the interest!

jraph 1y ago

That's quite the uncharitable view. They explicitly put a humble disclaimer that they don't actually understand Latin. What you see as "belief that the world needs to hear their thoughts" might be "willingness to share". It's nice that people engage with the unknown (here, Latin). That's how one learns. There's also nothing wrong with sharing this process. The result is obviously wrong here, and I would have been too shy to put it in the title of a blog post, but this doesn't have dramatic consequences. We are far from tech bros arrogantly imposing their shit tech to the world here.

globnomulous 1y ago
It's entirely uncharitable. I don't care about the author's humility. I will spare not one iota of sympathy or empathy for spreaders of AI slop or for the embarrassing naivete of writing a motto in a language one doesn't know and sharing it publicly with the expectation that it's an idea/expression worth discussing. Both deserve to be labeled and treated uncharitably. I wish Hacker News had policies that squash this kind of post before it can reach the front page. Nobody needs to read some guy's clueless thought diary, and the oxygen these submissions consume on HN are stolen from better pieces of writing that actually deserve attention.
- jraph 1y ago
  I won't completely blame you, I guess the AI hype needs some deserved hard push back. If that's what will make people realize it's not actually cool.
  - globnomulous 1y ago
    Thanks for this. Yeah, it's partly that. But do I accomplish anything worthwhile by being a total jerk and making a humiliating example of someone who means well? Probably not. I don't feel good after I write a takedown, and when the target reads my comments, I doubt he does either. Generally I try not to contribute to the web's tendency to stoke primitive, violent emotions, like anger, fear, and hate, but sometimes I care more about fighting the internet's ugly, dangerous tendency to 'democratize' by letting bad ideas and ignorance spread, choking out the fewer, smaller, less charismatic people who know what they're talking about (I'm not referring to myself). Unlike most programmers, I'm quite sure the world would largely be a better, more just place without the 'open' culture of the internet.
    - jraph 1y ago
      > I'm quite sure the world would largely be a better, more just place without the 'open' culture of the internet. This intrigues me a bit. In particular, what do you mean by the 'open' culture of the internet? Is there more to that than the "dangerous tendency to 'democratize' by letting bad ideas and ignorance spread" you mention earlier?
      - globnomulous 1y ago
        That comment was an unclear allusion to ideas I've absorbed from Jaron Lanier, plus a bit of my own elitism. Regarding the elitism: I'm not a free-speech absolutist; I don't prize individual, positive freedom over negative freedom (Most Americans do); and I'd prefer for gatekeepers largely to restrict and control the levers of cultural power. The internet, as a market-driven radical democracy, demostrates all of radical democracy's worst excesses and vulgarity, especially its tendency to vest power in charismatic charlatans skilled in stoking the primitive, violent emotions I mentioned above. Regarding 'open' culture: Jaron Lanier, father of VR, has written extensively on this. He'd be a much better ambassador for his ideas than I can be, and I recommend his books, essays, and interviews in the strongest possible terms. Lanier makes a strong case that the free-and-open culture of the internet ("information wants to be free") -- exemplified, for instance, in Napster, open source, and the practice of not putting up paywalls on news websites -- has been overwhelmingly negative and destructive. To take a few examples: it has largely destroyed music as a viable career; it has cheapened information, because somethings that's free has no value; it has led directly to the advertising-driven hellscape that the internet has become; and it has served only to augment the power of the already powerful, because only the rich are in a position to marshal the kinds of resources that one needs in order, quite literally, to mine data and find profit in it. Lanier has also been a major critic of the AI craze. Related to both of these: I'm a strong believer that the interconnectedness of the internet is dangerous, unsustainable, and by itself causing the US to drift towards the cultural and political equivalent of a nuclear meltdown, in the form of something like a fascist takeover. Connecting everybody on the internet has produced, I think, something like a feeling of cultural and political claustrophobia. People are going crazy because they're sharing mental space with too many other people. Anyhow, that's probably more than enough, and I'm not sure it's entirely cogent or coherent. Thanks for the interest!