8 ms·

Fight religious extremism in all its forms. Let it be known that, as a civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally and intell

Fight religious extremism in all its forms. Let it be known that, as a civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally and intellectually stunted children who can be whipped into a murderous frenzy by some priest or imam prattling on about God. Their "culture", such as it is, is simply incompatible with ours, and ours must win. This is why the isolationists and non-interventionists are so gravely mistaken, and why the homicidal infants have a leg up in this fight: the latter understand that this is a war of cultures, and that only one will survive. They've already infiltrated Europe and demanded their right to Sharia law, their right to blow up embassies because of cartoons or, as in this case, movies, their right to bomb subways. If we are to preserve the Enlightenment values that have raised humanity out of the dark ages and so improved our lot in life, if we are to continue to progress as a species, then we must be willing to fight for what we believe. We will not win this battle with diplomacy; our enemy has no desire for it. We must stamp out the medieval death cults that threaten us, and this will require force. We didn't start this fight, and let no liberal or pacifist tell you that the suicide bombings and attacks on liberty are the result of our foreign policy; they are not. They are the result of the inherent incompatibility of freedom and fundamentalism. Freedom isn't free, and if we aren't willing to fight to preserve our liberty, then we will deservedly lose it.

cup 14y ago
>Let it be known that, as a civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally and intellectually stunted children who can be whipped into a murderous frenzy by some priest or imam prattling on about God. A profoundly poor sentence. You're ravings are better suited somewhere else, soon you'll be talking about the gates of Vienna and protection of enlightened Christian Europe. >We didn't start this fight, and let no liberal or pacifist tell you that the suicide bombings and attacks on liberty are the result of our foreign policy; they are not. They are the result of the inherent incompatibility of freedom and fundamentalism. Freedom isn't free, and if we aren't willing to fight to preserve our liberty, then we will deservedly lose it. I never imagined I would see something like this written in HN. Yes, the even is sad. The death and circumstances around it are terrible, but to take such a narrow one minded view only fuels the fire. These people have legitimate grievances which people in the west continue to fuel because they believe their moral values are more 'enlightened'. Tell me, do you really think your post sounds like something coming from a 'civilized' person?
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  >A profoundly poor sentence. You're[sic] ravings are better suited somewhere else, soon you'll be talking about the gates of Vienna and protection of enlightened Christian Europe. If you'd like to make a point, I'd be happy to respond to it. >These people have legitimate grievances which people in the west continue to fuel Really? These people just bombed an embassy because a movie offended them. These people earlier bombed embassies because cartoons offended them. These people, earlier still, sentenced an author to death because they were offended by a segment in one of his novels, in which a paranoid schizophrenic hallucinates that he is the archangel Gibreel. These people are barbaric, violent, and emotionally stunted. These people react to people saying things they don't like by blowing them up, and these people think it their right to force their beliefs on the world at the point of a sword or muzzle of an AK-47. >they believe their moral values are more 'enlightened' Our values are more enlightened, in case you hadn't noticed. Your attempts to draw false equivalences between a culture which enshrines freedom and equality in law, and one which attacks same at every turn, is both laughable and deplorable.
  - cup 14y ago
    My point is what are your values? Democratic due process? Tell that to the Palestinians when they voted for Hamas in a free and fair election only to be shunned. Freedom of speech? Tell that to the numerous people arrested and imprisoned around the world under sedition/hate speech because they talk about Jihad or defending their countries. Freedom? America has the biggest imprisoned population in the world. Assuming you are American. Freedom is a cliche term thrown around with such little weight that it pains me to tears. Who was it that shot down a civilian airliner but never apologised? Which countries invaded the middle east? Which countries colonised and looted most of what is now the third world. Which country kills journalists and bombs news broadcasting stations? Which countries bombed a environmental protest ship, killed crew and never apologised, yet in the same breath has the audacity to talk about a liberté, égalité and fraternité. I mean your narrow, one sided, hypocritical and arrogant opinion is directly why some people get so angry. Consider the fact that all the things I mentioned before were performed by governments, not unruly mobs in anarchic post revolutionary states. Who is truly barbaric?
belorn 14y ago
Do you really believe that anyone who is not exactly like you or do not believe exactly like you do should be killed? I guess this follow the "anyone who isn't us are them" attitude. Them, the wrong people, and us, the right people. The right people who is white, christian, catholic, no wait Protestant, capitalist, West, Aryan and rich. The wrong people who is black, red, non-christian, Protestant, no wait catholic, communist, east, non-Aryan or poor. This is not a war of cultures. Neither would such a war preserve Enlightenment values. Enlightenment require us to use reason rather than tradition or faith to handle the situation. It is unreasonable to act intolerant. It is unreasonable to react with violence where diplomacy and peaceful actions can resolve issues. It is unreasonable to react to culture with walls, bared doors, and hostile attitude.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  >Do you really believe that anyone who is not exactly like you or do not believe exactly like you do should be killed? What part of my post suggests anything of the sort? I said we are in a war against religious fundamentalism whether we like it or not, and we had damned well better win. Your attempts to cast it as some racist diatribe are at best misguided, at worst malign.
  - intended 14y ago
    Desist. This will only generate a further flame war. Restraint and control of your emotions, and control over your ability to incite the emotions of others is the more fitting action to pay tribute to his death. He died precisely because someone privileged emotions over logic. Your actions and speech is in exactly the same vein. On a logical level - these comments add little to the discussion. They condone the asking of vague and undefined questions to subjects which are vastly nuanced, and complex. They generate further simplistic answers from people creating knee jerk reactions to your comments.
    - redthrowaway 14y ago
      My point is simply that Western civilization, and the Enlightenment values that underpin it, faces an existential threat from religious fundamentalism. That further, our society is not compatible with this fundamentalism, and must be defended against it. I fail to see how saying this is "privileging emotions over logic".
mayanksinghal 14y ago
> ours must win Yes that's exactly what religious extremists, you are so violently vocal against, say about western culture. This saddens me, I so wish I had the power to downvote. >We will not win this battle with diplomacy; our enemy has no desire for it. We must stamp out the medieval death cults that threaten us, and this will require force So you are using the death of Vile Rat, a person who believes in diplomacy more than strong-arming, to promote your own (and forgive me for being judgemental) twisted ideology. Don't you think that sounds a little too similar to religious nutbags who often twist religious saying to promote genocides, suicide bombings and wars. I just hope that you were being sarcastic about how extremists act, I will give you an upvote for that.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  >Yes that's exactly what religious extremists, you are so violently vocal against, say about western culture. Yes, they do. They believe that their fundamentalist beliefs must triumph over liberal democracy, and they're willing to blow people up in order to see that happen. We have no choice but to respond to this. >This saddens me Me, too. That doesn't change anything, though. >So you are using the death of Vile Rat, a person who believes in diplomacy more than strong-arming, to promote your own (and forgive me for being judgemental) twisted ideology. I'm using yet another instance of religious extremists committing murder because they didn't like what someone said to highlight the fact that we cannot continue to act as though our cultures are compatible. >Don't you think that sounds a little too similar to religious nutbags who often twist religious saying to promote genocides, suicide bombings and wars. Not at all. I abhor the first two, and simply recognize that when war comes to you, you had best be willing to fight or surrender.
  - mayanksinghal 14y ago
    > Me, too. No sir, your stand saddens me. > you had best be willing to fight or surrender. Or tackle things like adults. I come from India, I know wars do not solve problems. War based on culture and religion, never still. Your reaction will only bring more devastation to those who are not involved in these actions. Most of us non-westerners do not care what you say about our God(s) unless and until you are saying it just so as to be disrespectful. And even then, a unbelievably vast majority of us will probably only choose to withdraw our economic/political/social support that we would have otherwise entrusted you with. Killing is NOT our thing. And please don't go point out some article in a magazine showing how backward we are in terms of social equality; because we know we do and we don't want your intervention on it. Our governments are acting on it and the newer generations are all for equality. We are also less religious, just so that you know. So the war that you are throwing on the rest of us, we don't want to be part of it. We don't deserve to be a part of it. And I don't get it, how will a war solve anything. Is there going to a genocide where you kill all those who don't agree to you western culture and ideologies or just our leaders - cultural and political? May be you will start with embassies that represent our sovereign on your soil for you probably see them while going on work and they remind you of how incompatible we are to your culture.
flyinRyan 14y ago
Good lord, things will never change because we will never learn. It's exactly this "fight X in all its forms" that causes the problem to begin with. Help people, educate people. If they don't want your help or your education bit them adieu and walk away to help someone else. But what ever you do, don't start a fight and certainly don't start an idiotic idealogical fight ("X in all its forms!"). That's what got them here and it's what got us here.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  Sorry, but they've already started the fight. If only they would keep to themselves, I'd have no quarrel with them. The Amish are incredibly religious, but they keep to themselves. I would never say we have to get rid of the Amish Church. Fundamentalist Islam, like Evangelical Christianity, is not like that. The first threatens our values with bombs, the latter with ballots. Both seek to unmake Western civilization, and remake it in their image. Both must be defeated. The only difference is that the Evangelicals are not yet blowing people up, and so our response to them need not be so firm. Make no mistake, though, our society simply isn't compatible with religious fundamentalism, and so it must be subdued and eradicated. In most places, we can do that with education, dialogue, and economic development. In others, it will require armed resistance.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    Good lord, you sound as frothing-at-the-mouth radical as any extremist I've ever heard. Subdue and eradicate those who behave or think different than us? Like the Jews for example?
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      False equivalency. When Jews launch an aggressive campaign to kill those who merely disagree with them, you'll have a point.
      - flyinRyan 14y ago
nitrogen 14y ago
Instead of "fight[ing]," which seems to perpetuate the us-vs-them problem, why not focus on using enlightenment itself to preserve these enlightenment values? Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for knowledge. What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves."
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  >Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for knowledge. Both are necessary. We must bring the fruits of the enlightenment, and the very real individual benefits thereof, to the people who would otherwise be ripe recruits for fundamentalism. To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us. >What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves." While the second sentence seems suspect, I really like the first one. There would be a sort of cosmic beauty in using the vagaries of human consciousness that lead us to magical thinking to cure ourselves of same. Noe that would be a worthy hack.
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us. I'm not yet convinced of this. Maybe there truly are some people beyond redemption (with current technology), but I question how large that set could be, and doubt it encompasses every single member of any group designated by various governments as a terrorist organization (like Wikipedia).
    - nitrogen 14y ago
danenania 14y ago
The US has no interest whatsoever in fighting religious extremism. It fights to secure resources and strategic interests that primarily benefit the wealthiest members of its society. When it furthers US 'interests', the most brutal, oppressive, and religiously intolerant regimes on the planet are lavishly supported.
Jach 14y ago
> If we are to preserve the Enlightenment values... Which ones? If you want these people to become civilized, you have to reject at least one value that masquerades as one from the Enlightenment: self-rule and self-determination. These people must be subjected to the rule of law, it will not spontaneously emerge even if we set up the structure for it and create for them a government with a constitution modeled after our own. Bring on another round of colonialism! We would also have to step it up with the manner in which we deal out punishments. Apart from the 2003 invasion of Baghdad by the US (and that's really stretching it), we haven't fought with our "gloves off" for a long time. That has to end, too.
- redthrowaway 14y ago
  That's an interesting and cogent point. I think it true that we cannot merely present our values, and expect that they will adopt them. There will, by necessity, be some force (hard or soft) applied. How we accomplish this while remaining true to our values is a challenge in need of discussion.

cup 14y ago

>Let it be known that, as a civilized people, we will not tolerate the barbaric intrusions of emotionally and intellectually stunted children who can be whipped into a murderous frenzy by some priest or imam prattling on about God. A profoundly poor sentence. You're ravings are better suited somewhere else, soon you'll be talking about the gates of Vienna and protection of enlightened Christian Europe. >We didn't start this fight, and let no liberal or pacifist tell you that the suicide bombings and attacks on liberty are the result of our foreign policy; they are not. They are the result of the inherent incompatibility of freedom and fundamentalism. Freedom isn't free, and if we aren't willing to fight to preserve our liberty, then we will deservedly lose it. I never imagined I would see something like this written in HN. Yes, the even is sad. The death and circumstances around it are terrible, but to take such a narrow one minded view only fuels the fire. These people have legitimate grievances which people in the west continue to fuel because they believe their moral values are more 'enlightened'. Tell me, do you really think your post sounds like something coming from a 'civilized' person?

redthrowaway 14y ago
>A profoundly poor sentence. You're[sic] ravings are better suited somewhere else, soon you'll be talking about the gates of Vienna and protection of enlightened Christian Europe. If you'd like to make a point, I'd be happy to respond to it. >These people have legitimate grievances which people in the west continue to fuel Really? These people just bombed an embassy because a movie offended them. These people earlier bombed embassies because cartoons offended them. These people, earlier still, sentenced an author to death because they were offended by a segment in one of his novels, in which a paranoid schizophrenic hallucinates that he is the archangel Gibreel. These people are barbaric, violent, and emotionally stunted. These people react to people saying things they don't like by blowing them up, and these people think it their right to force their beliefs on the world at the point of a sword or muzzle of an AK-47. >they believe their moral values are more 'enlightened' Our values are more enlightened, in case you hadn't noticed. Your attempts to draw false equivalences between a culture which enshrines freedom and equality in law, and one which attacks same at every turn, is both laughable and deplorable.
- cup 14y ago
  My point is what are your values? Democratic due process? Tell that to the Palestinians when they voted for Hamas in a free and fair election only to be shunned. Freedom of speech? Tell that to the numerous people arrested and imprisoned around the world under sedition/hate speech because they talk about Jihad or defending their countries. Freedom? America has the biggest imprisoned population in the world. Assuming you are American. Freedom is a cliche term thrown around with such little weight that it pains me to tears. Who was it that shot down a civilian airliner but never apologised? Which countries invaded the middle east? Which countries colonised and looted most of what is now the third world. Which country kills journalists and bombs news broadcasting stations? Which countries bombed a environmental protest ship, killed crew and never apologised, yet in the same breath has the audacity to talk about a liberté, égalité and fraternité. I mean your narrow, one sided, hypocritical and arrogant opinion is directly why some people get so angry. Consider the fact that all the things I mentioned before were performed by governments, not unruly mobs in anarchic post revolutionary states. Who is truly barbaric?

belorn 14y ago

Do you really believe that anyone who is not exactly like you or do not believe exactly like you do should be killed? I guess this follow the "anyone who isn't us are them" attitude. Them, the wrong people, and us, the right people. The right people who is white, christian, catholic, no wait Protestant, capitalist, West, Aryan and rich. The wrong people who is black, red, non-christian, Protestant, no wait catholic, communist, east, non-Aryan or poor. This is not a war of cultures. Neither would such a war preserve Enlightenment values. Enlightenment require us to use reason rather than tradition or faith to handle the situation. It is unreasonable to act intolerant. It is unreasonable to react with violence where diplomacy and peaceful actions can resolve issues. It is unreasonable to react to culture with walls, bared doors, and hostile attitude.

redthrowaway 14y ago
>Do you really believe that anyone who is not exactly like you or do not believe exactly like you do should be killed? What part of my post suggests anything of the sort? I said we are in a war against religious fundamentalism whether we like it or not, and we had damned well better win. Your attempts to cast it as some racist diatribe are at best misguided, at worst malign.
- intended 14y ago
  Desist. This will only generate a further flame war. Restraint and control of your emotions, and control over your ability to incite the emotions of others is the more fitting action to pay tribute to his death. He died precisely because someone privileged emotions over logic. Your actions and speech is in exactly the same vein. On a logical level - these comments add little to the discussion. They condone the asking of vague and undefined questions to subjects which are vastly nuanced, and complex. They generate further simplistic answers from people creating knee jerk reactions to your comments.
  - redthrowaway 14y ago
    My point is simply that Western civilization, and the Enlightenment values that underpin it, faces an existential threat from religious fundamentalism. That further, our society is not compatible with this fundamentalism, and must be defended against it. I fail to see how saying this is "privileging emotions over logic".

mayanksinghal 14y ago

> ours must win Yes that's exactly what religious extremists, you are so violently vocal against, say about western culture. This saddens me, I so wish I had the power to downvote. >We will not win this battle with diplomacy; our enemy has no desire for it. We must stamp out the medieval death cults that threaten us, and this will require force So you are using the death of Vile Rat, a person who believes in diplomacy more than strong-arming, to promote your own (and forgive me for being judgemental) twisted ideology. Don't you think that sounds a little too similar to religious nutbags who often twist religious saying to promote genocides, suicide bombings and wars. I just hope that you were being sarcastic about how extremists act, I will give you an upvote for that.

redthrowaway 14y ago
>Yes that's exactly what religious extremists, you are so violently vocal against, say about western culture. Yes, they do. They believe that their fundamentalist beliefs must triumph over liberal democracy, and they're willing to blow people up in order to see that happen. We have no choice but to respond to this. >This saddens me Me, too. That doesn't change anything, though. >So you are using the death of Vile Rat, a person who believes in diplomacy more than strong-arming, to promote your own (and forgive me for being judgemental) twisted ideology. I'm using yet another instance of religious extremists committing murder because they didn't like what someone said to highlight the fact that we cannot continue to act as though our cultures are compatible. >Don't you think that sounds a little too similar to religious nutbags who often twist religious saying to promote genocides, suicide bombings and wars. Not at all. I abhor the first two, and simply recognize that when war comes to you, you had best be willing to fight or surrender.
- mayanksinghal 14y ago
  > Me, too. No sir, your stand saddens me. > you had best be willing to fight or surrender. Or tackle things like adults. I come from India, I know wars do not solve problems. War based on culture and religion, never still. Your reaction will only bring more devastation to those who are not involved in these actions. Most of us non-westerners do not care what you say about our God(s) unless and until you are saying it just so as to be disrespectful. And even then, a unbelievably vast majority of us will probably only choose to withdraw our economic/political/social support that we would have otherwise entrusted you with. Killing is NOT our thing. And please don't go point out some article in a magazine showing how backward we are in terms of social equality; because we know we do and we don't want your intervention on it. Our governments are acting on it and the newer generations are all for equality. We are also less religious, just so that you know. So the war that you are throwing on the rest of us, we don't want to be part of it. We don't deserve to be a part of it. And I don't get it, how will a war solve anything. Is there going to a genocide where you kill all those who don't agree to you western culture and ideologies or just our leaders - cultural and political? May be you will start with embassies that represent our sovereign on your soil for you probably see them while going on work and they remind you of how incompatible we are to your culture.

flyinRyan 14y ago

Good lord, things will never change because we will never learn. It's exactly this "fight X in all its forms" that causes the problem to begin with. Help people, educate people. If they don't want your help or your education bit them adieu and walk away to help someone else. But what ever you do, don't start a fight and certainly don't start an idiotic idealogical fight ("X in all its forms!"). That's what got them here and it's what got us here.

redthrowaway 14y ago
Sorry, but they've already started the fight. If only they would keep to themselves, I'd have no quarrel with them. The Amish are incredibly religious, but they keep to themselves. I would never say we have to get rid of the Amish Church. Fundamentalist Islam, like Evangelical Christianity, is not like that. The first threatens our values with bombs, the latter with ballots. Both seek to unmake Western civilization, and remake it in their image. Both must be defeated. The only difference is that the Evangelicals are not yet blowing people up, and so our response to them need not be so firm. Make no mistake, though, our society simply isn't compatible with religious fundamentalism, and so it must be subdued and eradicated. In most places, we can do that with education, dialogue, and economic development. In others, it will require armed resistance.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  Good lord, you sound as frothing-at-the-mouth radical as any extremist I've ever heard. Subdue and eradicate those who behave or think different than us? Like the Jews for example?
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    False equivalency. When Jews launch an aggressive campaign to kill those who merely disagree with them, you'll have a point.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago

nitrogen 14y ago

Instead of "fight[ing]," which seems to perpetuate the us-vs-them problem, why not focus on using enlightenment itself to preserve these enlightenment values? Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for knowledge. What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves."

redthrowaway 14y ago
>Instead of attacking magical thinking, promote rationality. Instead of attacking extremist religious belief, promote its antidote, a thirst for knowledge. Both are necessary. We must bring the fruits of the enlightenment, and the very real individual benefits thereof, to the people who would otherwise be ripe recruits for fundamentalism. To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us. >What would be really cool is if someone can figure out a way to trick the part of our brains that craves a Disney-style magical reality into contributing to its own demise. In other words, say to people, "Want a magical world? Join us in the use of science and technology to build it for ourselves." While the second sentence seems suspect, I really like the first one. There would be a sort of cosmic beauty in using the vagaries of human consciousness that lead us to magical thinking to cure ourselves of same. Noe that would be a worthy hack.
- nitrogen 14y ago
  To be blunt, however, we must also kill those who promote and carry out terrorist attacks against us. I'm not yet convinced of this. Maybe there truly are some people beyond redemption (with current technology), but I question how large that set could be, and doubt it encompasses every single member of any group designated by various governments as a terrorist organization (like Wikipedia).
  - nitrogen 14y ago

danenania 14y ago

The US has no interest whatsoever in fighting religious extremism. It fights to secure resources and strategic interests that primarily benefit the wealthiest members of its society. When it furthers US 'interests', the most brutal, oppressive, and religiously intolerant regimes on the planet are lavishly supported.

Jach 14y ago

> If we are to preserve the Enlightenment values... Which ones? If you want these people to become civilized, you have to reject at least one value that masquerades as one from the Enlightenment: self-rule and self-determination. These people must be subjected to the rule of law, it will not spontaneously emerge even if we set up the structure for it and create for them a government with a constitution modeled after our own. Bring on another round of colonialism! We would also have to step it up with the manner in which we deal out punishments. Apart from the 2003 invasion of Baghdad by the US (and that's really stretching it), we haven't fought with our "gloves off" for a long time. That has to end, too.

redthrowaway 14y ago
That's an interesting and cogent point. I think it true that we cannot merely present our values, and expect that they will adopt them. There will, by necessity, be some force (hard or soft) applied. How we accomplish this while remaining true to our values is a challenge in need of discussion.