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It depends. China has impressive automation and vertical integration.

alephnerd 1y ago
You cannot decouple labor and environmental abuse from low margins industries that are upstream of high value manufacturing, even in China. Every one of those automotive robots uses chips that contain REEs that is heavily sourced from Myanmar (a country in a state of civil war) and processed in poorer Chinese provinces like Yunnan and Guangxi. The steel used to build the casing for those robots will have been forged using metallurgical grade coal that (best case) was sourced from Australia's Carmichael coal mine who's operator has evaded paying taxes and overriden Australia's labor unions with the full backing of both parties. Even today, the median household disposable income in China is in the $300-400/mo range [0], and labor abuse remains a problem in much of industrial China [1] But that's the only way you can build stuff. Commodities are inherently commodified (it's in the name) - you cannot manufacture without commodities upstream. You will always need plastics, steel, coal, rare earth minerals, etc so someone will always be commodified (or synonym - exploited). [0] - https://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/202504/t20250425_1959460.html https://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/202504/t202504... [1] - https://www.somo.nl/the-hidden-human-costs-linked-to-global-supply-chains-in-china/ https://www.somo.nl/the-hidden-human-costs-linked-to-global-...
- margalabargala 1y ago
  RE: metallurgical grade coal A tiny fraction of mined coal is used for metallurgy. If consumption of metallurgical grade coal tripled, and consumption of coal for producing power went to zero, this would be a gigantic environmental win. The only major producers of metallurgical grade coal are Australia, Canada, and the US. So I'm not sure the mine you mention is in fact "best case".
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Don't forget Indonesia and Russia. Ukraine used to mine its own coking coal before the war, but now, with mines ruined or captured, it imports coal from the US. Things like nickel and REEs also heavily depend on mining in war-torn countries like Congo or Myanmar.
themafia 1y ago
As a foreigner there are certain places in China they won't let you travel through and even certain cities you cannot stay in overnight. This often coincides with where mining and industrial production are. China has an impressive ability to cover up the truth.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Last I went to China (mid-late 2010s), you could visit the less well off areas and off beaten paths in much of China as a tourist without too much hassle. The issue is most people don't. China is hard enough without Mandarin fluency, but going to urban villages where migrant workers live or Tier 3/4 cities where the majority of manufacting happens is an added level of difficult for "soft" people. Most tourists perfer to stay in their tourist bubbles, which tend to be a monoculture globally.
- scotty79 1y ago
  I'm sure there's a lot of land in US, you'd get promptly kicked out of by various security forces of corporations doing nasty stuff there.

You cannot decouple labor and environmental abuse from low margins industries that are upstream of high value manufacturing, even in China. Every one of those automotive robots uses chips that contain REEs that is heavily sourced from Myanmar (a country in a state of civil war) and processed in poorer Chinese provinces like Yunnan and Guangxi. The steel used to build the casing for those robots will have been forged using metallurgical grade coal that (best case) was sourced from Australia's Carmichael coal mine who's operator has evaded paying taxes and overriden Australia's labor unions with the full backing of both parties. Even today, the median household disposable income in China is in the $300-400/mo range [0], and labor abuse remains a problem in much of industrial China [1] But that's the only way you can build stuff. Commodities are inherently commodified (it's in the name) - you cannot manufacture without commodities upstream. You will always need plastics, steel, coal, rare earth minerals, etc so someone will always be commodified (or synonym - exploited). [0] - https://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/202504/t20250425_1959460.html https://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/202504/t202504... [1] - https://www.somo.nl/the-hidden-human-costs-linked-to-global-supply-chains-in-china/ https://www.somo.nl/the-hidden-human-costs-linked-to-global-...

margalabargala 1y ago
RE: metallurgical grade coal A tiny fraction of mined coal is used for metallurgy. If consumption of metallurgical grade coal tripled, and consumption of coal for producing power went to zero, this would be a gigantic environmental win. The only major producers of metallurgical grade coal are Australia, Canada, and the US. So I'm not sure the mine you mention is in fact "best case".
- nine_k 1y ago
  Don't forget Indonesia and Russia. Ukraine used to mine its own coking coal before the war, but now, with mines ruined or captured, it imports coal from the US. Things like nickel and REEs also heavily depend on mining in war-torn countries like Congo or Myanmar.

themafia 1y ago

As a foreigner there are certain places in China they won't let you travel through and even certain cities you cannot stay in overnight. This often coincides with where mining and industrial production are. China has an impressive ability to cover up the truth.

alephnerd 1y ago
Last I went to China (mid-late 2010s), you could visit the less well off areas and off beaten paths in much of China as a tourist without too much hassle. The issue is most people don't. China is hard enough without Mandarin fluency, but going to urban villages where migrant workers live or Tier 3/4 cities where the majority of manufacting happens is an added level of difficult for "soft" people. Most tourists perfer to stay in their tourist bubbles, which tend to be a monoculture globally.
scotty79 1y ago
I'm sure there's a lot of land in US, you'd get promptly kicked out of by various security forces of corporations doing nasty stuff there.