4 ms·

IMO it's different. That's why I brought the e-bike similitude: climbing even mild mountains or hills with your own legs will actually make your legs, heart and

IMO it's different. That's why I brought the e-bike similitude: climbing even mild mountains or hills with your own legs will actually make your legs, heart and lungs stronger in the process. So you get both the wonderful views (building the house or delivering the software) but also you get improved health (keeping your mind trained on both high level thinking and low level implementation vs high level only). We might say that using a hammer constantly will develop more your muscles, but in carpentry there are still plenty of manual work that will develop your muscles anyway. (and we still don't have bricks laying machines)

closewith 1y ago
> So you get both the wonderful views (building the house or delivering the software) but also you get improved health (keeping your mind trained on both high level thinking and low level implementation vs high level only). The vast majority of developers aren't summitting beautiful mountains of code, but are instead are sifting through endless corporate slop. > We might say that using a hammer constantly will develop more your muscles, but in carpentry there are still plenty of manual work that will develop your muscles anyway. The trades destroy human bodies over time and lead to awful health outcomes. Most developers will and should take any opportunity to reduce cognitive load, and will instead spend their limited cognitive abilities on things that matter: family, sport, art, literature, civics. Very few developers are vocational. If that is you and your job is your identity, then that's good for you. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that's a normal or desirable situation for others.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  > The vast majority of developers aren't summitting beautiful mountains I'm not sure you're approaching this metaphor the right away. The point is that coding manually is great cognitive exercise which keeps the mind sharp for doing the beautiful stuff. > The trades destroy human bodies over time and leads to awful health outcomes. Again, you're maybe being too literal and missing the point. No one is destroying their minds by coding. Exercise is good.
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    I am using LLMs, too, and I do not consider myself thinking less. I still have to be part of the whole process, incl. architectural process among other things that require my knowledge and my thinking.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      I use them too and actually agree with you that the cognitive load is somewhat comparable. I was only pointing out what seemed like an abuse of the metaphor.
  - closewith 1y ago
    > I'm not sure you're approaching this metaphor the right away. The point is that coding manually is great cognitive exercise which keeps the mind sharp for doing the beautiful stuff. No, I'm challenging the metaphor. Working the trades isn't exercise - it's a grind that wears people out. > Again, you're maybe being too literal and missing the point. No one is destroying their minds by coding. Exercise is good. We actually have good evidence that the effects of heavy cognitive load are detrimental to both the brain and mental health. We know that overwork and stress are extremely damaging to both. So reducing cognitive load in the workplace is an unambiguous good, and protects the brain and mind for the important parts of life, which are not in front of a screen.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      > We actually have good evidence that the effects of heavy cognitive load are detrimental to both the brain and mental health. We know that overwork and stress are extremely damaging to both. I don't think this is fair either, you're comparing "overwork and stress" to "work." It's like saying we have evidence that extreme physical stress is detrimental ergo it's "unambiguously" healthier to drive than to walk. Maybe you could share your good evidence so we can see if normal coding tasks would fall under the umbrella of overwork and stress?
      - closewith 1y ago
LinXitoW 1y ago
Ironically, e-bikes, at least in the EU, are having the exact opposite effect. More people that don't normally ride bikes are using e-bikes to get about. The motor functions not as a replacement, but as a force multiplier. It also makes "experimenting" easier, because the motor can make up for any mistakes or wrong turns. Caveat: In the EU, an e-bike REQUIRES some physical effort any time for the motor to run. Throttles are illegal.
- darkwater 1y ago
  I know that's what many people, especially elder one, say but this is still a hill I will die on :) They are mostly used to go in mostly flat roads, like some slow-speed motorcycle that needs some low effort. The ones using them outside paved road, using them as multipliers, are the ones that already did mountain biking when they were younger and they want to continue doing it at a higher level their age would permit without (which it's perfectly fine!).
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > Ironically, e-bikes, at least in the EU, are having the exact opposite effect. More people that don't normally ride bikes are using e-bikes to get about. At least in Germany people rather joke that the moment e-bikes became popular, people began to realize that they suddenly became too unathletic to be capable of pedaling a bicycle. I know of no person who uses an e-bike who did not ride an ordinary bicycle before. > In the EU, an e-bike REQUIRES some physical effort any time for the motor to run. The motor must shut off when 25 km/h is reached - which is basically the speed that a trained cyclist can easily attain. So because of this red tape stuff, e-bikes are considered to be useless and expensive by cyclists who are not couch potatoes.
  - theshrike79 1y ago
    But they still cannot assist 100%, there needs to be effort from the user. Otherwise they would be considered e-scooters and would have different rules and regulations applied.
    - 1y ago
theshrike79 1y ago
But if my goal is to ride Downhill[0] me exhausting myself riding up the hill isn't bringing any extra enjoyment for me. With electric assist, I can get up faster and to the business of coming down the hill really fast. We have ski-lifts for the exact same reason. People doing downhill skiing would make their legs, heart and lungs stronger in the process of walking up the hill with their skis. But who wants to do that, that's not the fun part. And to step back from analogy-land. I'm paid to solve problems, I'm good at architecture, I can design services, I can also write the code to do so. But in most cases the majority of the code I write is just boilerplate crap with minor differences. With LLMs I can have them write the Terraform deployment code, write the C# CRUD Controller classes and data models and apply the Entity Framework migrations. It'll do all that and add all the fancy Swagger annotation while it's at it. It'll even whip up a Github build action for me. Now I've saved a few days of mindless typing and I can get into solving the actual problem at hand, the one I'm paid to do. In reality I'm doing it _while_ I'm instructing the LLM to do the menial crap + reviewing the code it produced so I'm moving at twice the speed I would be normally. "But can't you just..." nope, if every project was _exactly_ the same, I'd have a template already, there are just enough differences to not make it worth my time[1]. If I had infinite time and money, I could build a DSL to do this, but again, referring to [1] - there's no point =) It's more cost efficient to pay the LLM tax to OpenAI, Anthropic or whatever and use it as a bespoke bootstrapping system for projects. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhill_mountain_biking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhill_mountain_biking [1] https://xkcd.com/1319/ https://xkcd.com/1319/
beaugunderson 1y ago
this is a persistent myth about eMTBs... they are still great for exercise! here's a study showing you get 94% of the heart rate on an eMTB compared to the same route on a non-eMTB: https://www.americantrails.org/resources/pedal-assist-mountain-bikes-a-pilot-study-comparison-of-the-exercise-response-perceptions-and-beliefs-of-experienced-mountain-bikers https://www.americantrails.org/resources/pedal-assist-mounta...

closewith 1y ago

> So you get both the wonderful views (building the house or delivering the software) but also you get improved health (keeping your mind trained on both high level thinking and low level implementation vs high level only). The vast majority of developers aren't summitting beautiful mountains of code, but are instead are sifting through endless corporate slop. > We might say that using a hammer constantly will develop more your muscles, but in carpentry there are still plenty of manual work that will develop your muscles anyway. The trades destroy human bodies over time and lead to awful health outcomes. Most developers will and should take any opportunity to reduce cognitive load, and will instead spend their limited cognitive abilities on things that matter: family, sport, art, literature, civics. Very few developers are vocational. If that is you and your job is your identity, then that's good for you. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that's a normal or desirable situation for others.

AlecSchueler 1y ago
> The vast majority of developers aren't summitting beautiful mountains I'm not sure you're approaching this metaphor the right away. The point is that coding manually is great cognitive exercise which keeps the mind sharp for doing the beautiful stuff. > The trades destroy human bodies over time and leads to awful health outcomes. Again, you're maybe being too literal and missing the point. No one is destroying their minds by coding. Exercise is good.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  I am using LLMs, too, and I do not consider myself thinking less. I still have to be part of the whole process, incl. architectural process among other things that require my knowledge and my thinking.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    I use them too and actually agree with you that the cognitive load is somewhat comparable. I was only pointing out what seemed like an abuse of the metaphor.
- closewith 1y ago
  > I'm not sure you're approaching this metaphor the right away. The point is that coding manually is great cognitive exercise which keeps the mind sharp for doing the beautiful stuff. No, I'm challenging the metaphor. Working the trades isn't exercise - it's a grind that wears people out. > Again, you're maybe being too literal and missing the point. No one is destroying their minds by coding. Exercise is good. We actually have good evidence that the effects of heavy cognitive load are detrimental to both the brain and mental health. We know that overwork and stress are extremely damaging to both. So reducing cognitive load in the workplace is an unambiguous good, and protects the brain and mind for the important parts of life, which are not in front of a screen.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    > We actually have good evidence that the effects of heavy cognitive load are detrimental to both the brain and mental health. We know that overwork and stress are extremely damaging to both. I don't think this is fair either, you're comparing "overwork and stress" to "work." It's like saying we have evidence that extreme physical stress is detrimental ergo it's "unambiguously" healthier to drive than to walk. Maybe you could share your good evidence so we can see if normal coding tasks would fall under the umbrella of overwork and stress?
    - closewith 1y ago

LinXitoW 1y ago

Ironically, e-bikes, at least in the EU, are having the exact opposite effect. More people that don't normally ride bikes are using e-bikes to get about. The motor functions not as a replacement, but as a force multiplier. It also makes "experimenting" easier, because the motor can make up for any mistakes or wrong turns. Caveat: In the EU, an e-bike REQUIRES some physical effort any time for the motor to run. Throttles are illegal.

darkwater 1y ago
I know that's what many people, especially elder one, say but this is still a hill I will die on :) They are mostly used to go in mostly flat roads, like some slow-speed motorcycle that needs some low effort. The ones using them outside paved road, using them as multipliers, are the ones that already did mountain biking when they were younger and they want to continue doing it at a higher level their age would permit without (which it's perfectly fine!).
aleph_minus_one 1y ago
> Ironically, e-bikes, at least in the EU, are having the exact opposite effect. More people that don't normally ride bikes are using e-bikes to get about. At least in Germany people rather joke that the moment e-bikes became popular, people began to realize that they suddenly became too unathletic to be capable of pedaling a bicycle. I know of no person who uses an e-bike who did not ride an ordinary bicycle before. > In the EU, an e-bike REQUIRES some physical effort any time for the motor to run. The motor must shut off when 25 km/h is reached - which is basically the speed that a trained cyclist can easily attain. So because of this red tape stuff, e-bikes are considered to be useless and expensive by cyclists who are not couch potatoes.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  But they still cannot assist 100%, there needs to be effort from the user. Otherwise they would be considered e-scooters and would have different rules and regulations applied.
  - 1y ago

theshrike79 1y ago

But if my goal is to ride Downhill[0] me exhausting myself riding up the hill isn't bringing any extra enjoyment for me. With electric assist, I can get up faster and to the business of coming down the hill really fast. We have ski-lifts for the exact same reason. People doing downhill skiing would make their legs, heart and lungs stronger in the process of walking up the hill with their skis. But who wants to do that, that's not the fun part. And to step back from analogy-land. I'm paid to solve problems, I'm good at architecture, I can design services, I can also write the code to do so. But in most cases the majority of the code I write is just boilerplate crap with minor differences. With LLMs I can have them write the Terraform deployment code, write the C# CRUD Controller classes and data models and apply the Entity Framework migrations. It'll do all that and add all the fancy Swagger annotation while it's at it. It'll even whip up a Github build action for me. Now I've saved a few days of mindless typing and I can get into solving the actual problem at hand, the one I'm paid to do. In reality I'm doing it _while_ I'm instructing the LLM to do the menial crap + reviewing the code it produced so I'm moving at twice the speed I would be normally. "But can't you just..." nope, if every project was _exactly_ the same, I'd have a template already, there are just enough differences to not make it worth my time[1]. If I had infinite time and money, I could build a DSL to do this, but again, referring to [1] - there's no point =) It's more cost efficient to pay the LLM tax to OpenAI, Anthropic or whatever and use it as a bespoke bootstrapping system for projects. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhill_mountain_biking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downhill_mountain_biking [1] https://xkcd.com/1319/ https://xkcd.com/1319/

beaugunderson 1y ago

this is a persistent myth about eMTBs... they are still great for exercise! here's a study showing you get 94% of the heart rate on an eMTB compared to the same route on a non-eMTB: https://www.americantrails.org/resources/pedal-assist-mountain-bikes-a-pilot-study-comparison-of-the-exercise-response-perceptions-and-beliefs-of-experienced-mountain-bikers https://www.americantrails.org/resources/pedal-assist-mounta...