3 ms·

Your smartwatch is probably more powerful than some of your past computers too. Same with your DSLR camera. Even your smart fridge. These are specialized hardwa

by divan 1y ago

Your smartwatch is probably more powerful than some of your past computers too. Same with your DSLR camera. Even your smart fridge. These are specialized hardware+software gadgets designed to a particular purpose, which is very different from being a development platform. Same with a phone.

stavros 1y ago
Yeah, this is the sleight of hand. They used to all be computers, now we have reduced freedom to "development platforms". No. It's hardware, I bought it, I should be able to run any code I want on my DSLR (and I do), my fridge, my oven, my smartwatch, anything I own.
Zak 1y ago
A modern smartphone is mostly a general-purpose computer designed to run arbitrary software with a couple tightly integrated and/or regulated bits. That's very different from a DSLR, which is designed to take pictures. That said, a camera with a fully open software stack would be fun.
- divan 1y ago
  Oh, so no specialized hardware? Just a general-purpose components for general computation tasks?
fluoridation 1y ago
>These are specialized hardware+software gadgets designed to a particular purpose, which is very different from being a development platform. Then I shouldn't be able to install software on it at all. For any given device either its functions are fixed, or they're modifiable at the sole discretion of the owner. There should be no middle ground.
- divan 1y ago
  > There should be no middle ground. Why?
  - fluoridation 1y ago
    Because that's what ownership is. The owner of something has complete decision power over that thing, not anyone else. That might leave him with some liability depending on what he does, but that's his prerogative.
    - divan 1y ago
      Ownership is rarely absolute. It can be partial, segmented and with different degrees of control. Think about music rights ownership - there are mechanical rights, performance rights, sync rights, derivative rights, etc. I'm not defending music industry ownership system, but it shows clearly that binary view of ownership is far from reality. You own the flat, but you can't remove the wall. You may own the house, but you can't build a factory there due to zoning regulations. You can own electric car, but you can't put diesel fuel there. I see that main disagreement here is whether phones are "general purpose computers" or not. I have no idea why anyone would call these ultra-packed cameras on steroids a "general purpose computer". Framed like this, this is a debate about OP demanding private companies to transform their product into something very different and urging governments to step in. And the thing is those products exists – Libreum 5, Ubuntu Phone or PinePhone phones, or already mentioned Maemo/MeeGo phones (N900/N9/N950). If they were a better product on the market, we would have them everywhere, but industry and market decided otherwise (PinePhone was discontinued just couple of weeks ago, sadly).
      - fluoridation 1y ago
        >Think about music rights ownership What are we talking about exactly? Ownership as in IP, or ownership of a copy? >You own the flat, but you can't remove the wall. Of course I can, as long as the wall is internal and non-structural. Everything inside the inner surfaces of the external walls is mine. >You may own the house, but you can't build a factory there due to zoning regulations. Well, zoning laws exist because plots of land don't exist in isolation, and affect each other. If I choose to run software X on a computer I own, how does that per se affect anyone else, that I should not be allowed to do so? Not that I should be punished if I do it, but that I should be stopped technologically from being able to attempt it? As I see it, there should be a very compelling reason to infringe on property rights in such an invasive way. >You can own electric car, but you can't put diesel fuel there. Literally what's stopping you from opening the charging port of your electric car and pouring in a can of diesel if you really want to? Or, for a more realistic example, what's stopping you from modifying your car by installing a diesel generator in the backseat that continuously charges the battery as you drive? >I have no idea why anyone would call these ultra-packed cameras on steroids a "general purpose computer". If you really wanted, you could build an APK yourself to use an Android phone to host a website. Is it good idea? I don't know. That's for you to decide. But in what way is a device that's capable of doing this not a "general purpose computer"? What more does it need? >Framed like this, this is a debate about OP demanding private companies to transform their product into something very different No. Phones are already this. They have processing elements, memory, stored programs... They're just computers. No one should get to decide what my computer runs over me. If I want to run something I should be able to run it, and if I want to stop something from running I should be able to stop it. Whether that causes problems for myself is my own business. I don't understand what's so complicated about this, or why anyone would argue against this.
integralid 1y ago
Why shouldn't I be able to reflash my fridge? I own it. I did this with my vacuum robot for example. It doesn't have to be easy or convenient, but it shouldn't be impossible.
- skeezyboy 1y ago
  What stops you from flashing your fridge, besides the fact you bought an unflashable fridge?
const_cast 1y ago
A smartphone is not a specialized hardware or software, it's a general computation device. Its just a completely bogus argument. Its not a fucking smart fridge, come on
- divan 1y ago
  > a smartphone is ... a general computation device Right, just a motherboard with CPU and memory put into small case, like in old good garage days.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    That's not what a general computation device is and you know it. Do not play stupid or bullshit me. For MOST people, a smartphone is their only computational device. Let me say that again. It is their _ONLY_ device. Could you live your life using only a PS5? How about you throw away your phone and replace it with a washing machine? The smartphone IS NOT an appliance. It is absolutely a general computational device. I can't believe this is even up for debate, it's actually blowing my mind.
    - divan 1y ago
      You're not even wrong. In your words, a "general computation device" is the device that enables you to "live your life"? How does "being their only device" make it even "general computational"? I have no idea what your definition of "general computational device" is, but it's very clearly different from mine. In my worldview, "general computational device" is the piece of hardware specifically designed to run any program you want. Personal computers, desktop computers, servers, and mini-computers are examples of these. Smartphones - with the exception of a few very niche devices – have never been any of this. They didn't start as "mini-PC", they grew out of telephony – a heavily regulated industry with strict standards around the usage of frequencies, and where compliance and billing matter more than ability to tinker. The ability to "run apps" was never even on the table in pre-iPhone era. iPhone, ofc, changed it by pioneering the app market, and it was locked in from the very beginning - for security and user experience reasons. We can argue whether that was a good decision or not, but that's the short history of smartphones never being a "general purpose computational device". Modern phones are heavily optimized, specialized devices for the "daily life" tasks - camera, navigation, calls, messaging, web browsing – that also have very limited and sandboxed capability to run apps in a way that the manufacturers allowed. So no, phones are not "general computational devices" and have never been. I'm sorry that your worldview doesn't allow listening to other people's opinions. Debating is indeed very hard without it.
rsync 1y ago
Just a nit … As this is HN - a very thoughtful and technically astute demographic - it’s very unlikely that your parent, or others reading, own a “smart fridge”.

by divan 1y ago

stavros 1y ago

Yeah, this is the sleight of hand. They used to all be computers, now we have reduced freedom to "development platforms". No. It's hardware, I bought it, I should be able to run any code I want on my DSLR (and I do), my fridge, my oven, my smartwatch, anything I own.

Zak 1y ago

A modern smartphone is mostly a general-purpose computer designed to run arbitrary software with a couple tightly integrated and/or regulated bits. That's very different from a DSLR, which is designed to take pictures. That said, a camera with a fully open software stack would be fun.

divan 1y ago
Oh, so no specialized hardware? Just a general-purpose components for general computation tasks?

fluoridation 1y ago

>These are specialized hardware+software gadgets designed to a particular purpose, which is very different from being a development platform. Then I shouldn't be able to install software on it at all. For any given device either its functions are fixed, or they're modifiable at the sole discretion of the owner. There should be no middle ground.

divan 1y ago
> There should be no middle ground. Why?
- fluoridation 1y ago
  Because that's what ownership is. The owner of something has complete decision power over that thing, not anyone else. That might leave him with some liability depending on what he does, but that's his prerogative.
  - divan 1y ago
    Ownership is rarely absolute. It can be partial, segmented and with different degrees of control. Think about music rights ownership - there are mechanical rights, performance rights, sync rights, derivative rights, etc. I'm not defending music industry ownership system, but it shows clearly that binary view of ownership is far from reality. You own the flat, but you can't remove the wall. You may own the house, but you can't build a factory there due to zoning regulations. You can own electric car, but you can't put diesel fuel there. I see that main disagreement here is whether phones are "general purpose computers" or not. I have no idea why anyone would call these ultra-packed cameras on steroids a "general purpose computer". Framed like this, this is a debate about OP demanding private companies to transform their product into something very different and urging governments to step in. And the thing is those products exists – Libreum 5, Ubuntu Phone or PinePhone phones, or already mentioned Maemo/MeeGo phones (N900/N9/N950). If they were a better product on the market, we would have them everywhere, but industry and market decided otherwise (PinePhone was discontinued just couple of weeks ago, sadly).
    - fluoridation 1y ago
      >Think about music rights ownership What are we talking about exactly? Ownership as in IP, or ownership of a copy? >You own the flat, but you can't remove the wall. Of course I can, as long as the wall is internal and non-structural. Everything inside the inner surfaces of the external walls is mine. >You may own the house, but you can't build a factory there due to zoning regulations. Well, zoning laws exist because plots of land don't exist in isolation, and affect each other. If I choose to run software X on a computer I own, how does that per se affect anyone else, that I should not be allowed to do so? Not that I should be punished if I do it, but that I should be stopped technologically from being able to attempt it? As I see it, there should be a very compelling reason to infringe on property rights in such an invasive way. >You can own electric car, but you can't put diesel fuel there. Literally what's stopping you from opening the charging port of your electric car and pouring in a can of diesel if you really want to? Or, for a more realistic example, what's stopping you from modifying your car by installing a diesel generator in the backseat that continuously charges the battery as you drive? >I have no idea why anyone would call these ultra-packed cameras on steroids a "general purpose computer". If you really wanted, you could build an APK yourself to use an Android phone to host a website. Is it good idea? I don't know. That's for you to decide. But in what way is a device that's capable of doing this not a "general purpose computer"? What more does it need? >Framed like this, this is a debate about OP demanding private companies to transform their product into something very different No. Phones are already this. They have processing elements, memory, stored programs... They're just computers. No one should get to decide what my computer runs over me. If I want to run something I should be able to run it, and if I want to stop something from running I should be able to stop it. Whether that causes problems for myself is my own business. I don't understand what's so complicated about this, or why anyone would argue against this.

integralid 1y ago

Why shouldn't I be able to reflash my fridge? I own it. I did this with my vacuum robot for example. It doesn't have to be easy or convenient, but it shouldn't be impossible.

skeezyboy 1y ago
What stops you from flashing your fridge, besides the fact you bought an unflashable fridge?

const_cast 1y ago

A smartphone is not a specialized hardware or software, it's a general computation device. Its just a completely bogus argument. Its not a fucking smart fridge, come on

divan 1y ago
> a smartphone is ... a general computation device Right, just a motherboard with CPU and memory put into small case, like in old good garage days.
- const_cast 1y ago
  That's not what a general computation device is and you know it. Do not play stupid or bullshit me. For MOST people, a smartphone is their only computational device. Let me say that again. It is their _ONLY_ device. Could you live your life using only a PS5? How about you throw away your phone and replace it with a washing machine? The smartphone IS NOT an appliance. It is absolutely a general computational device. I can't believe this is even up for debate, it's actually blowing my mind.
  - divan 1y ago
    You're not even wrong. In your words, a "general computation device" is the device that enables you to "live your life"? How does "being their only device" make it even "general computational"? I have no idea what your definition of "general computational device" is, but it's very clearly different from mine. In my worldview, "general computational device" is the piece of hardware specifically designed to run any program you want. Personal computers, desktop computers, servers, and mini-computers are examples of these. Smartphones - with the exception of a few very niche devices – have never been any of this. They didn't start as "mini-PC", they grew out of telephony – a heavily regulated industry with strict standards around the usage of frequencies, and where compliance and billing matter more than ability to tinker. The ability to "run apps" was never even on the table in pre-iPhone era. iPhone, ofc, changed it by pioneering the app market, and it was locked in from the very beginning - for security and user experience reasons. We can argue whether that was a good decision or not, but that's the short history of smartphones never being a "general purpose computational device". Modern phones are heavily optimized, specialized devices for the "daily life" tasks - camera, navigation, calls, messaging, web browsing – that also have very limited and sandboxed capability to run apps in a way that the manufacturers allowed. So no, phones are not "general computational devices" and have never been. I'm sorry that your worldview doesn't allow listening to other people's opinions. Debating is indeed very hard without it.

rsync 1y ago

Just a nit … As this is HN - a very thoughtful and technically astute demographic - it’s very unlikely that your parent, or others reading, own a “smart fridge”.