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>big scary message Open question: Any idea on making it so difficult that grandma isn't even able to follow a phisher’s instructions over the phone but yet ne

>big scary message Open question: Any idea on making it so difficult that grandma isn't even able to follow a phisher’s instructions over the phone but yet nearly trivial for anyone who knows what they’re doing?

XorNot 1y ago
Fix the phone system so calls must positively identify themselves. There is no reason anyone purporting to be from a business or the government should be able to place a call without cryptographically proving their identity.
- Barbing 1y ago
  I like that! I’m sure it would take a little bit of time for folks to stop trusting calls from personal numbers where highly-capable social engineers do their best work, but eventually I expect nearly all of us would learn the lesson. And presumably we could set up notifications so our elderly relatives’ phones would alert us to calls from unverified numbers not in their contact list lasting longer than a minute or two.
immibis 1y ago
Stop gatekeeping actually useful apps. Nobody should never need to see the message to do anything they actually want to do, otherwise it leads to normalization of deviance. False positives from PC virus scanners are very rare.
- hobs 1y ago
  What are you on about? The last 10 years of computing the only time windows defender pinged was on false positives.
- Barbing 1y ago
  Interesting, mind elaborating a bit/clarifying the first couple of sentences there? A point I’d like to understand
AnthonyMouse 1y ago
Sure. You ship the device in open mode, and then doing it is easy. The device supports closed mode (i.e. whatever the currently configured package installation sources are, you can no longer add more), and if you put the device in closed mode, getting it back out requires attaching a debugger to the USB port, a big scary message and confirmation on the phone screen itself, and a full device wipe. Then you put grandma's device in closed mode and explicitly tell her never to do the scary thing that takes it back out again and call you immediately if anyone asks her to. Or, for someone who is not competent to follow that simple instruction (e.g. small children or senile adults), you make the factory reset require a password and then don't give it to them.
- Barbing 1y ago
  Very nice! I’m sure I’m missing a problem with the following approach: shipping in _closed_ mode with a sticker on the front notifying the person they should do a factory reset immediately to make sure they can do everything they want to do. During the reset, include a scary message for those who opt in to get to open mode. Everyone simply goes by defaults so it would only be technical people presumably who would even get into the open mode in the first place. And then require the debugger to leave closed mode like you said. Edit: this comment worries about solo/asocial/“orphaned” members of our society
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    The problem with that is the owner has to choose which package sources they want to allow before the device is in closed mode, because after that adding more requires the scary reset, and the vendor of course has the perverse incentive to ship the device in closed mode with only their own store enabled, which has to be prohibited because it's anti-competitive.
- alkonaut 1y ago
  Make it an obscure option in the first time setup so all the users that click next next next will end up with the secure mode, while the open mode requires fiddling. This isn’t a gdpr opt out where both alternatives need to be equally easy. We (as a society) absolutely need the devices to default to the current model when purchased.

XorNot 1y ago

Fix the phone system so calls must positively identify themselves. There is no reason anyone purporting to be from a business or the government should be able to place a call without cryptographically proving their identity.

Barbing 1y ago
I like that! I’m sure it would take a little bit of time for folks to stop trusting calls from personal numbers where highly-capable social engineers do their best work, but eventually I expect nearly all of us would learn the lesson. And presumably we could set up notifications so our elderly relatives’ phones would alert us to calls from unverified numbers not in their contact list lasting longer than a minute or two.

immibis 1y ago

Stop gatekeeping actually useful apps. Nobody should never need to see the message to do anything they actually want to do, otherwise it leads to normalization of deviance. False positives from PC virus scanners are very rare.

hobs 1y ago
What are you on about? The last 10 years of computing the only time windows defender pinged was on false positives.
Barbing 1y ago
Interesting, mind elaborating a bit/clarifying the first couple of sentences there? A point I’d like to understand

AnthonyMouse 1y ago

Sure. You ship the device in open mode, and then doing it is easy. The device supports closed mode (i.e. whatever the currently configured package installation sources are, you can no longer add more), and if you put the device in closed mode, getting it back out requires attaching a debugger to the USB port, a big scary message and confirmation on the phone screen itself, and a full device wipe. Then you put grandma's device in closed mode and explicitly tell her never to do the scary thing that takes it back out again and call you immediately if anyone asks her to. Or, for someone who is not competent to follow that simple instruction (e.g. small children or senile adults), you make the factory reset require a password and then don't give it to them.

Barbing 1y ago
Very nice! I’m sure I’m missing a problem with the following approach: shipping in _closed_ mode with a sticker on the front notifying the person they should do a factory reset immediately to make sure they can do everything they want to do. During the reset, include a scary message for those who opt in to get to open mode. Everyone simply goes by defaults so it would only be technical people presumably who would even get into the open mode in the first place. And then require the debugger to leave closed mode like you said. Edit: this comment worries about solo/asocial/“orphaned” members of our society
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  The problem with that is the owner has to choose which package sources they want to allow before the device is in closed mode, because after that adding more requires the scary reset, and the vendor of course has the perverse incentive to ship the device in closed mode with only their own store enabled, which has to be prohibited because it's anti-competitive.
alkonaut 1y ago
Make it an obscure option in the first time setup so all the users that click next next next will end up with the secure mode, while the open mode requires fiddling. This isn’t a gdpr opt out where both alternatives need to be equally easy. We (as a society) absolutely need the devices to default to the current model when purchased.