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This is a big thing in Denmark and has been for several generations. https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andelsboligforening https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andels

by ExxKA 1y ago

This is a big thing in Denmark and has been for several generations. https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andelsboligforening https://da.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andelsboligforening The issue with them is that the loans to build the properties are socialised, so if the other members can not pay the debt, the entire loan is the responsibility of those members who can. Also, the incentives of a cheaper than market rate flat, means that corruption and nepotism is rampant in those buildings. It is not pretty in practice.

awongh 1y ago
> Also, the incentives of a cheaper than market rate flat, means that corruption and nepotism is rampant in those buildings. Maybe there's some middle ground between socialized housing that incentivizes people to take advantage of overly cheap housing, and a 100% capitalist USA style housing market where lots of people are 1 missed paycheck away from being homeless.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Maybe there's some middle ground Maybe there is, but human history proves we can't easily reach a equilibrium where everyone has it equally good, due to human greed, envy, cronyism and corruption, making any kind of equality just a fairytale utopia. So we just bounce between extremes because as always, few people strive have it good and the rest get screwed over in order to pay for the privileges of the select few. There will always be haves and have-nots, no matter how many thumbs the government puts on the scales to try to balance things out for everyone which only breaks things for the worst as they distort economic reality. Meanwhile from the numbers I gathered, despite the "evil capitalism", statistically by most metrics, Americans enjoy the highest purchasing power for home ownership in the developed western world by a large margin. So Americans love to complain too much, but the truth is by the numbers, most of the world has it much worse than they do. 1. Demographia International Housing Affordability | Lower median multiple = higher affordability (2025 Edition) Singapore 4.2 United States 4.8 Ireland 5.1 Canada 5.4 United Kingdom 5.6 New Zealand 7.7 Australia 9.7 2. World Population Review: Housing Affordability Index | Higher index = higher purchasing power (2024 Data) United States 3.3 Denmark 2.1 Belgium 2.1 Ireland 1.8 Luxembourg 1.8 Norway 1.7 Sweden 1.7 Finland 1.7 Spain 1.7 Netherlands 1.7 Germany 1.5 Switzerland 1.5 3. Numbeo Property Prices Index | Lower ratio = higher affordability (2025 Mid-Year) United States 3.44 Germany 8.5 United Kingdom 8.71 Italy 9.04 Canada 9.45 France 9.89 Japan 11.34
  - Refreeze5224 1y ago
    I firmly disagree that history proves this. The history of certain countries, certain economic systems, and certain systems of social organization have proven inequitable, but most people are unfamiliar with the many systems that have proven workable, but have not provided for a small hierarchical cadre of people with coercive power over others. It's not surprising that this sort of thing is not taught within a capitalist or statist system, but they certainly do exist, and have throughout human history, which is much longer than the last 500 years or so existence of hierarchical states and capitalism. See David Graeber's The Dawn of Everything for a deep dive into some of the many successful systems of human societal organization.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      You can disagree but the numbers don't lie.
      - fragmede 1y ago
        Of course they do. There's a reason why the saying is "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Can you prove those numbers lie? Because then what's the point of science and statistics? Should we just argue based on vibes then? Where does that get us when we start the conversation with the assumption that all data is always false?
        fragmede 1y ago
        Someone's always trying to sell you something. Just because they use numbers, doesn't mean you should necessarily buy what they're pushing.
        1y ago
cnnlives71 1y ago
> Also, the incentives of a cheaper than market rate flat, means that corruption and nepotism is rampant in those buildings. But if it were a flat/apartment, the owner/manager may not actually take good care of the apartment. Which is worse?
- ExxKA 1y ago
  You mean if people living there were renting? This is purely anecdotal, but I find that the buildings with professional management and purely renting tenants, look better and seem more well kept, compared to the smaller "Andelsforeninger" where its a volunteer management team trying to run it.

by ExxKA 1y ago

awongh 1y ago

> Also, the incentives of a cheaper than market rate flat, means that corruption and nepotism is rampant in those buildings. Maybe there's some middle ground between socialized housing that incentivizes people to take advantage of overly cheap housing, and a 100% capitalist USA style housing market where lots of people are 1 missed paycheck away from being homeless.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>Maybe there's some middle ground Maybe there is, but human history proves we can't easily reach a equilibrium where everyone has it equally good, due to human greed, envy, cronyism and corruption, making any kind of equality just a fairytale utopia. So we just bounce between extremes because as always, few people strive have it good and the rest get screwed over in order to pay for the privileges of the select few. There will always be haves and have-nots, no matter how many thumbs the government puts on the scales to try to balance things out for everyone which only breaks things for the worst as they distort economic reality. Meanwhile from the numbers I gathered, despite the "evil capitalism", statistically by most metrics, Americans enjoy the highest purchasing power for home ownership in the developed western world by a large margin. So Americans love to complain too much, but the truth is by the numbers, most of the world has it much worse than they do. 1. Demographia International Housing Affordability | Lower median multiple = higher affordability (2025 Edition) Singapore 4.2 United States 4.8 Ireland 5.1 Canada 5.4 United Kingdom 5.6 New Zealand 7.7 Australia 9.7 2. World Population Review: Housing Affordability Index | Higher index = higher purchasing power (2024 Data) United States 3.3 Denmark 2.1 Belgium 2.1 Ireland 1.8 Luxembourg 1.8 Norway 1.7 Sweden 1.7 Finland 1.7 Spain 1.7 Netherlands 1.7 Germany 1.5 Switzerland 1.5 3. Numbeo Property Prices Index | Lower ratio = higher affordability (2025 Mid-Year) United States 3.44 Germany 8.5 United Kingdom 8.71 Italy 9.04 Canada 9.45 France 9.89 Japan 11.34
- Refreeze5224 1y ago
  I firmly disagree that history proves this. The history of certain countries, certain economic systems, and certain systems of social organization have proven inequitable, but most people are unfamiliar with the many systems that have proven workable, but have not provided for a small hierarchical cadre of people with coercive power over others. It's not surprising that this sort of thing is not taught within a capitalist or statist system, but they certainly do exist, and have throughout human history, which is much longer than the last 500 years or so existence of hierarchical states and capitalism. See David Graeber's The Dawn of Everything for a deep dive into some of the many successful systems of human societal organization.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    You can disagree but the numbers don't lie.
    - fragmede 1y ago
      Of course they do. There's a reason why the saying is "lies, damn lies, and statistics".
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Can you prove those numbers lie? Because then what's the point of science and statistics? Should we just argue based on vibes then? Where does that get us when we start the conversation with the assumption that all data is always false?
        fragmede 1y ago
        Someone's always trying to sell you something. Just because they use numbers, doesn't mean you should necessarily buy what they're pushing.
        1y ago

cnnlives71 1y ago

> Also, the incentives of a cheaper than market rate flat, means that corruption and nepotism is rampant in those buildings. But if it were a flat/apartment, the owner/manager may not actually take good care of the apartment. Which is worse?

ExxKA 1y ago
You mean if people living there were renting? This is purely anecdotal, but I find that the buildings with professional management and purely renting tenants, look better and seem more well kept, compared to the smaller "Andelsforeninger" where its a volunteer management team trying to run it.