9 ms·

Family of MSFT employee who died warn tech companies not to overwork workers

sieabahlpark 1y ago
[dead]
cmkcyanmag 1y ago
This is horrible. Nearly as horrifying are all of the people that bust their asses because they care and don’t want to lose their jobs, then the managers and/or companies who’ve come to expect that fire them when they burn out, after they’ve amassed health problems, and they haven’t spent any time in career-related training nor networked with others to find something else.
Maksadbek 1y ago
The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. You're free to say NO! and work less, even this will results being laid off. Only during 1:1s your manager may highlight that deadline is soon and would be great if the project would be delivered on time, and little hint about a promo. But you set goals and force yourself to do more, single night this less sleep doesn't hurt anyone. Then there are more such nights of coding and you feel barely alive. 90% work is done, only very little left to finish. And then bam! Upd: I didn’t mean that this is ok, I’m for workers rights.
- blitzar 1y ago
  > The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. You are free to be poor, broke and homeless. We really need a management class that doesn't insist on continuing the cycle of abuse on their underlings.
  - layer8 1y ago
    The implication that the only choices are either working yourself to death or becoming broke and homeless, is ridiculous. I’m all for workers’ rights, though.
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    Workers need organizing and unions. If the policy is voluntary and subject to change at someone’s whim, it doesn’t exist.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    >We really need a management class that doesn't insist on continuing the cycle of abuse on their underlings. This won't happen. Your manager puts pressure on you, they get pressure from their manager and so on until it reaches the CEO who might be getting pressure from investors/board. Only fix is regulations from the government which seems to be a curse word by many posters on this site.
    - haswell 1y ago
      History is filled with people saying “this won’t happen”, only for that thing to happen. Culture evolves and changes. What is acceptable in a culture evolves and changes with it. Be the change you want to see, apply steady pressure, speak up when the opportunity arises, debate people who see things differently, and with time, many things can happen. Most progress is hard-won.
      - stackskipton 1y ago
        This is like saying I can fix global warming by recycling better and going vegan. You are not wrong but it's also like trying to stop a flood with few sandbags. I've had managers who tried. None of them lasted at these companies that did not care. They were politely told they were not meeting expectations and since they had mortgages and other stuff, they took a hint and moved on. Again, this fight is political and not corporate. Make tech workers hourly and this will stop. There will also be plenty of tech workers who will fight against this tooth and nail.
        haswell 1y ago
        > This is like saying I can fix global warming by recycling better and going vegan. I can't agree. I don't think anyone who is diligent about recycling or making environmentally conscious food choices believes it will fix global warming. But doing the things that we can is still important for changing culture over time. If you're a young person growing up in a home that thinks about these things responsibly, the hope is that more people reaching adult-hood will think about the world through that lens. Is it enough? No. Is it still critical? I think so. > I've had managers who tried. None of them lasted at these companies that did not care. I've worked at places where management did not behave in the way you describe. The point being that such places exist, and such an outcome is not so impossible. One way to guarantee things will not change is to do nothing.
  - martin-t 1y ago
    How about removing the hierarchical power structure entirely. The west claims people are all equal and then they happily slave for cents while their "bosses" make dollars. Worker cooperatives are to corporations what democracies are to dictatorships.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > How about removing the hierarchical power structure entirely. We, at least those of us in the software industry, tried that. If you look closely, that's what Agile was all about. The associated Twelve Principles of Agile Software outlines what needs to be considered by developers when there isn't a "boss" to oversee operations. But I'm sure you know how that turned out in practice: The power structure quickly jumped on usurping the name and bastardized it into something that gave them even more power.
  - AstroBen 1y ago
    ..save money.. Why are you putting yourself in a position where you're forced to find work as fast as possible or you'll be homeless? For all but the people on the lowest incomes or those with terrible luck this is a solvable problem
- 9rx 1y ago
  > The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. Maybe I've been farming for too long, but my brain, at least, is wired to push until completion and until things are done it will consume me. If you're going to be up all night ruminating about it, you may as well actually work on it. Of course, in farming you get a nice long break after you've pushed yourself hard. I've never worked at Microsoft, but I suspect, given what I've seen elsewhere, that as soon as it is done it's already on to the next thing, never giving workers a chance to stop for a while.
- robofanatic 1y ago
  > You're free to say NO! It gets complicated really fast if you add decades of temporary visa status to it.
- javierluraschi 1y ago
  No you can’t, the system is setup to make you work that hard. Their compensation policy is based on rewarding disproportionally the top performers… So if you can work 10% more than your peers, you get not 10% bonus but rather 30%-100% more. So it makes business sense to put the extra 10%, until everyone is working at 110% and then again, adding an extra 10% pays off, rinse release, death spiral. The compensation model is pure evil.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > So it makes business sense to put the extra 10% Does it actually? I'd buy that it makes silly arbitrary emotion sense to bask in the nonsensical feelings about an even bigger number. The actual business case is much less clear. There is obviously an opportunity cost associated with that extra 10% and 30-100% is not necessarily the best opportunity. I suspect it is often not.
    - 11324msthrow 1y ago
      Microsoft engineer throwaway chiming in. I think the parent emphasizes the wrong side of it, although I agree with them strongly that it is a damaging way to do things. Yes, you get slightly more upside on the top end, but it's more like 30% vs. 10% for an average performer, there's no 100% bonuses here unless you're in the "ruling class" (roughly VP and above). The actual risk is that if you're on the downside of what they call "differentiation", if you're not the one who pushed above your peers, what used to be called meets expectation is now considered below expectations, and is a path towards pip and layoff. Lack of growth for non-terminal roles is also now identified as a path towards pip and layoff. Microsoft is intentionally turning up the heat to thin the herd.
  - pixelatedindex 1y ago
    Or, you can just be happy getting the lower end of the bonus. It’s not like the pay and RSU is peanuts. Or work just enough to be in the middle of the bell curve. I put in the work to be in the top part earlier but it is absolutely not worth it, they will lay you off anyway.
kelseyfrog 1y ago
Companies have no morals. They only respond to profit. Abolish the overtime exemption for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, and software engineers. Make it unprofitable to extract labor until someone dies. All other actions are impotent.
- majormajor 1y ago
  Removing overtime exemptions (across the board, not just for software) seems like a clear winner on many axes. * Folks working more can have direct immediate compensation for it, vs handwavy promises of maybe future promotions or stock option rewards * Creates jobs by lowering incentives to just over-work the people you already have * Spreads out the income tax load by creating more paid labor out of thin air to get the same amount of total work done - better to have that marginal change in the average person's pocketbooks and income tax than tax-sheltered locations for corporations or the highly-wealthy
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- martin-t 1y ago
  How about instead abolishing privately owned companies? Most western countries are democracies because people got fed up of being exploited by dictators (sometimes called "kings"), removed them and setup a system in which they elect who makes the decisions. This system has issues but is less bad than dictatorship. Yet, companies kept their hierarchical power structures. Workers should decide who makes the decisions. If they don't wanna invest time into selling their product, they hire a salesman. If they want somebody to make long term projections, plan what gets worked on and communicates with other teams, they hire an assistant. And they decide how much he gets paid according to how much value he actually brings them. Managers should be assistants.
  - geor9e 1y ago
    There should be a name for this sort of communal economic system
firesteelrain 1y ago
The sad part in all of this is that Microsoft likely had no policy that required him to work this much and yet the Microsoft cultural pressure combined with H1B unknowns drove him to not take care of himself and apply immense amounts of undue pressure. Managers need to be aware of this and question why their employees feel the need to work this much. Either hire more or coach the employees not to burn out.
- nikolayasdf123 1y ago
  > H1B unknowns this. most countries have similar policies. been there, seen so many others going through this in UK, USA, Japan, Korea, Singapore. it really damages your life. to everyone, check other countries (Portugal, Thailand, Japan) that give you residency for years and allow to work remotely don't let your employer hold you and your family a hostage with your legal status
  - javierluraschi 1y ago
    That would be nice, but if you want to immigrate, that’s the current deal.
  - cedws 1y ago
    >Japan Unfortunately you can only work here up to 6 months as a digital nomad and it's not residency, it's basically just an extended tourist visa. Portugal's digital nomad visa seems good but their immigration system is apparently extremely dysfunctional.
    - nikolayasdf123 1y ago
      Japan last year had HSP visa, which was a good deal (PR in 1 year + no Japanese language requirement). fastest permanent immigration track I ever seen
    - nikolayasdf123 1y ago
      Hong Kong has good one right now with TTPS China will be opening new visa track for tech in October, must be interseting to see
horns4lyfe 1y ago
The issues around H1B visas are ruining American work culture and have been for some time. TBH, it’s already captured and I think it’s too late to fix it
- nikolayasdf123 1y ago
  get visa in countries that allow remote work. Portugal, Thailand, China now issue good vias that let you work for a company anywhere in the world and stay many years in the country, or start your own business. don't let your employer keep you and your family hostage with your legal status
- jimbohn 1y ago
  But that's exactly the point of those visas! It's all about leverage. I truly hope that one day, centuries from now, we will look at the fact that people working for the richest man in the world had to poo in bags to work harder and faster with disgust
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
javcasas 1y ago
There was this meme I read somewhere: "Here is a button. If you press it, you get $50.000, but someone you don't know dies. Will you press it? Some people never press it. Some people press it once, maybe twice. The billionaires press it as fast as they can." This time we got to know one of the victims, but definitely all those projects he was working on generated so much value for the shareholders.
- LaserDiscMan 1y ago
  That meme is likely a reference to “Button, Button” a short story by Richard Matheson that was later adapted into a Twilight Zone episode and the 2009 movie “The Box”
- djmips 1y ago
  Temporarily embarrassed billionaires downvoting right now.
OutOfHere 1y ago
The more you work, the more you will have to work. They will exploit you that much more. Insufficient sleep is very bad for the heart. It is critically important for long-term health to to leave work on the dot at 5 pm, then get some exercise done in the evening if not in the very early morning. Also, stop relying on fast food for meals.
- black_13 1y ago
  [dead]
twilo 1y ago
I dunno I’ve been seeing more of these stories ever since sars2 started circulating but it’s probably “just stress”
- andai 1y ago
  Hush now. I come here to numb my emotions, not contemplate death.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
djmips 1y ago
For anyone out there who's in the same situation, please don't work when you're sick - that's when you're the most vulnerable. Over my career, I've known two otherwise healthy individuals who continued to press despite having the flu and both lost their lives.
- kyleee 1y ago
  They literally died while working with the flu?
ronbenton 1y ago
Microsoft’s continuous firings over the past few years has put a tremendous amount of pressure on employees to demonstrate value. I have observed H1B holders especially affected by this pressure as getting laid off in this economy may well result in getting kicked out of the country. Pretty shameful stuff.
- _bypa 1y ago
  Shameful yes, but entirely expected from corporations that only care about profits. Sorry, shareholder value.
  - ronbenton 1y ago
    No doubt. They’ll only care about an employee dropping dead from stress if it causes enough negative press to affect shareholder value.
JCM9 1y ago
Big tech companies will take every once of energy and time you give them. With H1Bs it can be horrible as they threaten firing folks that will often have to upend and leave the country if they stop working there. By most standards it’s almost indentured servitude. As much as they say they care about employees, honestly they don’t. It’s important to draw a line and say no. These companies would dump you tomorrow and not think twice about it. Work hard and have fun, but remember they call it “compensation” for a reason. Don’t let a company you don’t own be your life… that never works out well in the long run.
coolThingsFirst 1y ago
[flagged]

[dead]

This is horrible. Nearly as horrifying are all of the people that bust their asses because they care and don’t want to lose their jobs, then the managers and/or companies who’ve come to expect that fire them when they burn out, after they’ve amassed health problems, and they haven’t spent any time in career-related training nor networked with others to find something else.

Maksadbek 1y ago

The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. You're free to say NO! and work less, even this will results being laid off. Only during 1:1s your manager may highlight that deadline is soon and would be great if the project would be delivered on time, and little hint about a promo. But you set goals and force yourself to do more, single night this less sleep doesn't hurt anyone. Then there are more such nights of coding and you feel barely alive. 90% work is done, only very little left to finish. And then bam! Upd: I didn’t mean that this is ok, I’m for workers rights.

blitzar 1y ago
> The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. You are free to be poor, broke and homeless. We really need a management class that doesn't insist on continuing the cycle of abuse on their underlings.
- layer8 1y ago
  The implication that the only choices are either working yourself to death or becoming broke and homeless, is ridiculous. I’m all for workers’ rights, though.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Workers need organizing and unions. If the policy is voluntary and subject to change at someone’s whim, it doesn’t exist.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  >We really need a management class that doesn't insist on continuing the cycle of abuse on their underlings. This won't happen. Your manager puts pressure on you, they get pressure from their manager and so on until it reaches the CEO who might be getting pressure from investors/board. Only fix is regulations from the government which seems to be a curse word by many posters on this site.
  - haswell 1y ago
    History is filled with people saying “this won’t happen”, only for that thing to happen. Culture evolves and changes. What is acceptable in a culture evolves and changes with it. Be the change you want to see, apply steady pressure, speak up when the opportunity arises, debate people who see things differently, and with time, many things can happen. Most progress is hard-won.
    - stackskipton 1y ago
      This is like saying I can fix global warming by recycling better and going vegan. You are not wrong but it's also like trying to stop a flood with few sandbags. I've had managers who tried. None of them lasted at these companies that did not care. They were politely told they were not meeting expectations and since they had mortgages and other stuff, they took a hint and moved on. Again, this fight is political and not corporate. Make tech workers hourly and this will stop. There will also be plenty of tech workers who will fight against this tooth and nail.
      - haswell 1y ago
        > This is like saying I can fix global warming by recycling better and going vegan. I can't agree. I don't think anyone who is diligent about recycling or making environmentally conscious food choices believes it will fix global warming. But doing the things that we can is still important for changing culture over time. If you're a young person growing up in a home that thinks about these things responsibly, the hope is that more people reaching adult-hood will think about the world through that lens. Is it enough? No. Is it still critical? I think so. > I've had managers who tried. None of them lasted at these companies that did not care. I've worked at places where management did not behave in the way you describe. The point being that such places exist, and such an outcome is not so impossible. One way to guarantee things will not change is to do nothing.
- martin-t 1y ago
  How about removing the hierarchical power structure entirely. The west claims people are all equal and then they happily slave for cents while their "bosses" make dollars. Worker cooperatives are to corporations what democracies are to dictatorships.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > How about removing the hierarchical power structure entirely. We, at least those of us in the software industry, tried that. If you look closely, that's what Agile was all about. The associated Twelve Principles of Agile Software outlines what needs to be considered by developers when there isn't a "boss" to oversee operations. But I'm sure you know how that turned out in practice: The power structure quickly jumped on usurping the name and bastardized it into something that gave them even more power.
- AstroBen 1y ago
  ..save money.. Why are you putting yourself in a position where you're forced to find work as fast as possible or you'll be homeless? For all but the people on the lowest incomes or those with terrible luck this is a solvable problem
9rx 1y ago
> The sad part is that no one forces you to work that hard. Maybe I've been farming for too long, but my brain, at least, is wired to push until completion and until things are done it will consume me. If you're going to be up all night ruminating about it, you may as well actually work on it. Of course, in farming you get a nice long break after you've pushed yourself hard. I've never worked at Microsoft, but I suspect, given what I've seen elsewhere, that as soon as it is done it's already on to the next thing, never giving workers a chance to stop for a while.
robofanatic 1y ago
> You're free to say NO! It gets complicated really fast if you add decades of temporary visa status to it.
javierluraschi 1y ago
No you can’t, the system is setup to make you work that hard. Their compensation policy is based on rewarding disproportionally the top performers… So if you can work 10% more than your peers, you get not 10% bonus but rather 30%-100% more. So it makes business sense to put the extra 10%, until everyone is working at 110% and then again, adding an extra 10% pays off, rinse release, death spiral. The compensation model is pure evil.
- 9rx 1y ago
  > So it makes business sense to put the extra 10% Does it actually? I'd buy that it makes silly arbitrary emotion sense to bask in the nonsensical feelings about an even bigger number. The actual business case is much less clear. There is obviously an opportunity cost associated with that extra 10% and 30-100% is not necessarily the best opportunity. I suspect it is often not.
  - 11324msthrow 1y ago
    Microsoft engineer throwaway chiming in. I think the parent emphasizes the wrong side of it, although I agree with them strongly that it is a damaging way to do things. Yes, you get slightly more upside on the top end, but it's more like 30% vs. 10% for an average performer, there's no 100% bonuses here unless you're in the "ruling class" (roughly VP and above). The actual risk is that if you're on the downside of what they call "differentiation", if you're not the one who pushed above your peers, what used to be called meets expectation is now considered below expectations, and is a path towards pip and layoff. Lack of growth for non-terminal roles is also now identified as a path towards pip and layoff. Microsoft is intentionally turning up the heat to thin the herd.
- pixelatedindex 1y ago
  Or, you can just be happy getting the lower end of the bonus. It’s not like the pay and RSU is peanuts. Or work just enough to be in the middle of the bell curve. I put in the work to be in the top part earlier but it is absolutely not worth it, they will lay you off anyway.

kelseyfrog 1y ago

Companies have no morals. They only respond to profit. Abolish the overtime exemption for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, and software engineers. Make it unprofitable to extract labor until someone dies. All other actions are impotent.

majormajor 1y ago
Removing overtime exemptions (across the board, not just for software) seems like a clear winner on many axes. * Folks working more can have direct immediate compensation for it, vs handwavy promises of maybe future promotions or stock option rewards * Creates jobs by lowering incentives to just over-work the people you already have * Spreads out the income tax load by creating more paid labor out of thin air to get the same amount of total work done - better to have that marginal change in the average person's pocketbooks and income tax than tax-sheltered locations for corporations or the highly-wealthy
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
martin-t 1y ago
How about instead abolishing privately owned companies? Most western countries are democracies because people got fed up of being exploited by dictators (sometimes called "kings"), removed them and setup a system in which they elect who makes the decisions. This system has issues but is less bad than dictatorship. Yet, companies kept their hierarchical power structures. Workers should decide who makes the decisions. If they don't wanna invest time into selling their product, they hire a salesman. If they want somebody to make long term projections, plan what gets worked on and communicates with other teams, they hire an assistant. And they decide how much he gets paid according to how much value he actually brings them. Managers should be assistants.
- geor9e 1y ago
  There should be a name for this sort of communal economic system

firesteelrain 1y ago

The sad part in all of this is that Microsoft likely had no policy that required him to work this much and yet the Microsoft cultural pressure combined with H1B unknowns drove him to not take care of himself and apply immense amounts of undue pressure. Managers need to be aware of this and question why their employees feel the need to work this much. Either hire more or coach the employees not to burn out.

nikolayasdf123 1y ago
> H1B unknowns this. most countries have similar policies. been there, seen so many others going through this in UK, USA, Japan, Korea, Singapore. it really damages your life. to everyone, check other countries (Portugal, Thailand, Japan) that give you residency for years and allow to work remotely don't let your employer hold you and your family a hostage with your legal status
- javierluraschi 1y ago
  That would be nice, but if you want to immigrate, that’s the current deal.
- cedws 1y ago
  >Japan Unfortunately you can only work here up to 6 months as a digital nomad and it's not residency, it's basically just an extended tourist visa. Portugal's digital nomad visa seems good but their immigration system is apparently extremely dysfunctional.
  - nikolayasdf123 1y ago
    Japan last year had HSP visa, which was a good deal (PR in 1 year + no Japanese language requirement). fastest permanent immigration track I ever seen
  - nikolayasdf123 1y ago
    Hong Kong has good one right now with TTPS China will be opening new visa track for tech in October, must be interseting to see

horns4lyfe 1y ago

The issues around H1B visas are ruining American work culture and have been for some time. TBH, it’s already captured and I think it’s too late to fix it

nikolayasdf123 1y ago
get visa in countries that allow remote work. Portugal, Thailand, China now issue good vias that let you work for a company anywhere in the world and stay many years in the country, or start your own business. don't let your employer keep you and your family hostage with your legal status
jimbohn 1y ago
But that's exactly the point of those visas! It's all about leverage. I truly hope that one day, centuries from now, we will look at the fact that people working for the richest man in the world had to poo in bags to work harder and faster with disgust
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

javcasas 1y ago

There was this meme I read somewhere: "Here is a button. If you press it, you get $50.000, but someone you don't know dies. Will you press it? Some people never press it. Some people press it once, maybe twice. The billionaires press it as fast as they can." This time we got to know one of the victims, but definitely all those projects he was working on generated so much value for the shareholders.

LaserDiscMan 1y ago
That meme is likely a reference to “Button, Button” a short story by Richard Matheson that was later adapted into a Twilight Zone episode and the 2009 movie “The Box”
djmips 1y ago
Temporarily embarrassed billionaires downvoting right now.

OutOfHere 1y ago

The more you work, the more you will have to work. They will exploit you that much more. Insufficient sleep is very bad for the heart. It is critically important for long-term health to to leave work on the dot at 5 pm, then get some exercise done in the evening if not in the very early morning. Also, stop relying on fast food for meals.

black_13 1y ago
[dead]

twilo 1y ago

I dunno I’ve been seeing more of these stories ever since sars2 started circulating but it’s probably “just stress”

andai 1y ago
Hush now. I come here to numb my emotions, not contemplate death.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

djmips 1y ago

For anyone out there who's in the same situation, please don't work when you're sick - that's when you're the most vulnerable. Over my career, I've known two otherwise healthy individuals who continued to press despite having the flu and both lost their lives.

kyleee 1y ago
They literally died while working with the flu?

ronbenton 1y ago

Microsoft’s continuous firings over the past few years has put a tremendous amount of pressure on employees to demonstrate value. I have observed H1B holders especially affected by this pressure as getting laid off in this economy may well result in getting kicked out of the country. Pretty shameful stuff.

_bypa 1y ago
Shameful yes, but entirely expected from corporations that only care about profits. Sorry, shareholder value.
- ronbenton 1y ago
  No doubt. They’ll only care about an employee dropping dead from stress if it causes enough negative press to affect shareholder value.

JCM9 1y ago

Big tech companies will take every once of energy and time you give them. With H1Bs it can be horrible as they threaten firing folks that will often have to upend and leave the country if they stop working there. By most standards it’s almost indentured servitude. As much as they say they care about employees, honestly they don’t. It’s important to draw a line and say no. These companies would dump you tomorrow and not think twice about it. Work hard and have fun, but remember they call it “compensation” for a reason. Don’t let a company you don’t own be your life… that never works out well in the long run.

coolThingsFirst 1y ago

[flagged]