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> They explicitly don't support installing any software not provided by their "app stores". Most Linux distributions don't prevent you from installing third pa

> They explicitly don't support installing any software not provided by their "app stores". Most Linux distributions don't prevent you from installing third party software at all. You download something, you set the execute bit, it runs. Users are wary of doing that with software from untrusted sources because, obviously, you're then placing your trust in whoever provided the software instead of the distribution's packaging team. But the OS won't stop you if that's what you want to do, and sometimes you do trust the source of the software. > Despite those policies, or perhaps because of them, botnets of Linux servers are common. Botnets of Linux servers are common because some people operate them without security installing updates (common with WordPress), and then attackers exploit known vulnerabilities in the unpatched software. But "locked" phone platforms regularly discontinue security updates for devices that are still in widespread use. Locking the device doesn't solve that problem at all, and in fact makes it worse because then if the OEM doesn't patch it nobody else can do it either.

mike_hearn 1y ago
You're conflating "allow" and "support". The OS doesn't stop you installing third party software - signed or not - on macOS, Windows or Android, so "allow" is nothing interesting. That also won't be changing with Android, given that you can buy a phone with an unlockable bootloader and reflash to some other spin of Android that implements whatever security policies you want. You can put these devices into a mode that allows anything. The question is whether that's something the vendors make easy, if they support it in the sense that you can do it and they will still deal with you if there's a problem. That's what support means. It's not a synonym for technically possible. Windows, macOS and Android don't consider installing third party software to put the system in an unsupported state. Linux vendors do.
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  This has not been true on macOS in some time - you have to go to considerable lengths to install unsigned software at this point. I recently upgraded macOS, and it took me a couple of reboots and scarily-worded system configuration changes to re-enable (signed) kernel extensions…
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  > The OS doesn't stop you installing third party software - signed or not - on macOS, Windows or Android, so "allow" is nothing interesting. The concern is that they are now doing this on Android, and have long been on iOS. Moreover, there are really three things here: Fully supported, still easy enough to be practical, and so much friction that it's dead. If you install Steam on Windows, Microsoft doesn't "support" that -- if you call Microsoft support and want them to fix a problem with Steam, they're going to direct you to Valve. But installing Steam on Windows is easy to do, and therefore common. And it's the same thing with installing Steam on Linux. Likewise, you can get Linux software from the distribution's repositories, but you can also use pip or npm or flatpak or any number of alternative packaging systems, and doing this is easy and common. Which, on Android and iOS, it isn't. It's not just "not supported" but so arduous that the alternatives can't gain traction, which is qualitatively different and has consequences in terms of network effect even if it's technically possible to install LineageOS on a handset if you buy just the right one and immediately reinstall the OS and keep a separate phone to run your bank app. And even then you still can't install a mainline kernel on that device and are reliant on the OEM to keep publishing security updates.
  - mike_hearn 1y ago
    > The concern is that they are now doing this on Android Even with this new policy there are still ways to install unsigned apps on Android e.g. via adb, reflashing to a different build of Android, and so on. But you're absolutely right that there's a spectrum of usability here, which is why "allow" isn't really a useful standard. Only iOS tries to set friction to 100%. Every other platform "allows" third party installation given enough work, which is why it's valid to compare the difficulty of doing so on Linux with other platforms. Re: Steam. Microsoft absolutely does support that! If you install Steam, Windows breaks, and Steam isn't doing something disallowed like messing with internal data structures, then Microsoft will accept it as a bug in Windows. They work very hard to support apps even when they actually do mess with internals. It's the Linux world that shrugs if a change in Linux breaks Steam when Steam was doing nothing wrong. Flatpak is a genuine improvement, yes. But for the rest, sorry, you have developer brain switched on! Pip! Easier to use than Android!? These tools: • Only target developers, and as such regularly do things like try to compile software during install and then fail due to obscure compatibility or versioning issues. • Have severe malware problems. You couldn't present pip or npm to the Android team as a solution to the problem they're trying to solve. You blame Android for being "arduous" whilst desktop Linux has spent decades with <5% market share exactly because it's so incredibly arduous. Come on: even with these new policies it is much easier for both users and developers to access/make software on Android. I've developed and distributed software for every OS except iOS at this point, and the differences are clear.

mike_hearn 1y ago

You're conflating "allow" and "support". The OS doesn't stop you installing third party software - signed or not - on macOS, Windows or Android, so "allow" is nothing interesting. That also won't be changing with Android, given that you can buy a phone with an unlockable bootloader and reflash to some other spin of Android that implements whatever security policies you want. You can put these devices into a mode that allows anything. The question is whether that's something the vendors make easy, if they support it in the sense that you can do it and they will still deal with you if there's a problem. That's what support means. It's not a synonym for technically possible. Windows, macOS and Android don't consider installing third party software to put the system in an unsupported state. Linux vendors do.

swiftcoder 1y ago
This has not been true on macOS in some time - you have to go to considerable lengths to install unsigned software at this point. I recently upgraded macOS, and it took me a couple of reboots and scarily-worded system configuration changes to re-enable (signed) kernel extensions…
AnthonyMouse 1y ago
> The OS doesn't stop you installing third party software - signed or not - on macOS, Windows or Android, so "allow" is nothing interesting. The concern is that they are now doing this on Android, and have long been on iOS. Moreover, there are really three things here: Fully supported, still easy enough to be practical, and so much friction that it's dead. If you install Steam on Windows, Microsoft doesn't "support" that -- if you call Microsoft support and want them to fix a problem with Steam, they're going to direct you to Valve. But installing Steam on Windows is easy to do, and therefore common. And it's the same thing with installing Steam on Linux. Likewise, you can get Linux software from the distribution's repositories, but you can also use pip or npm or flatpak or any number of alternative packaging systems, and doing this is easy and common. Which, on Android and iOS, it isn't. It's not just "not supported" but so arduous that the alternatives can't gain traction, which is qualitatively different and has consequences in terms of network effect even if it's technically possible to install LineageOS on a handset if you buy just the right one and immediately reinstall the OS and keep a separate phone to run your bank app. And even then you still can't install a mainline kernel on that device and are reliant on the OEM to keep publishing security updates.
- mike_hearn 1y ago
  > The concern is that they are now doing this on Android Even with this new policy there are still ways to install unsigned apps on Android e.g. via adb, reflashing to a different build of Android, and so on. But you're absolutely right that there's a spectrum of usability here, which is why "allow" isn't really a useful standard. Only iOS tries to set friction to 100%. Every other platform "allows" third party installation given enough work, which is why it's valid to compare the difficulty of doing so on Linux with other platforms. Re: Steam. Microsoft absolutely does support that! If you install Steam, Windows breaks, and Steam isn't doing something disallowed like messing with internal data structures, then Microsoft will accept it as a bug in Windows. They work very hard to support apps even when they actually do mess with internals. It's the Linux world that shrugs if a change in Linux breaks Steam when Steam was doing nothing wrong. Flatpak is a genuine improvement, yes. But for the rest, sorry, you have developer brain switched on! Pip! Easier to use than Android!? These tools: • Only target developers, and as such regularly do things like try to compile software during install and then fail due to obscure compatibility or versioning issues. • Have severe malware problems. You couldn't present pip or npm to the Android team as a solution to the problem they're trying to solve. You blame Android for being "arduous" whilst desktop Linux has spent decades with <5% market share exactly because it's so incredibly arduous. Come on: even with these new policies it is much easier for both users and developers to access/make software on Android. I've developed and distributed software for every OS except iOS at this point, and the differences are clear.