4 ms·

> The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into That's fair a

> The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into That's fair and I think it's mostly true. At the same time, comparing "Europe" as a monolith compared to the US doesn't make a lot of sense, the history, languages and religions aren't shared for many countries, contrary to the US. We can circle back to saying it was and is a lack of vision from the EU to not have been more aggressive in creating this culture. > I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. From what you wrote, I can somewhat understand this standpoint but this creates strong segregation between communities that aren't healthy and it sounds like a breeding ground for conflict as well.

simianparrot 1y ago
It is a prime example for why most of European politics are shifting rightwards. And I'm not saying that's a good thing, overall, it simply is the reason. Far too many who've immigrated here have the GP's viewpoint, and the conflict seems inevitable since our elected representatives have acted paralyzed for decades on this issue. And I personally fear where this is going. Because as much as I want to vet immigrants much more thoroughly and for a time hopefully have net-negative immigration in my country's case, I also know so many immigrants who came here to blend with our culture and are fantastic fellow countrymen. They've enriched our country and culture. When our representatives let it get as bad as it's getting, the ensuing conflict is one that I fear will end up harming indiscriminately, based on ethnicity and simple identifiable markers. All because spineless bureaucrats would rather not put their neck on the line, instead opting to let it all slide into the historically inevitable ugly conflict that seems looming. I am actively looking into non-European destinations to emigrate to, and only ones where I feel I can be a net-positive on their culture and contribute to their economy and society. Because if my worst-case scenario for Europe comes to pass, I don't want to be here to be dragged into it. I don't want to be a contributor in that ugliness.
- NeutralForest 1y ago
  This sounds very defeatist? I still believe in the European project but it gets hard when you see the current political landscape. That said, I don't think we can only put it on spineless bureaucrats, I don't see many countries having bold policies of integration even at the national level.
  - simianparrot 1y ago
    When I'm looking into countries to emigrate to, I don't expect _them_ to take on the burden of integrating _me_, I take that burden of responsibility on myself. Likewise I never understood why we blame ourselves for a lack of effective integration when, particularly in Norway's case, we offer all the services you could want. But you have to _want_ to integrate, we can't force you. And if you don't want to, please leave.
    - NeutralForest 1y ago
      > Likewise I never understood why we blame ourselves for a lack of effective integration Because the country of arrival is usually the stronger economic party. You have the capability of emigrating and integrating because you speak multiple languages, have most likely attained high education and you probably have the means to start a new life some place else. Honestly, good for you but not everyone has those benefits. In the case of someone poorer, it might take a significant amount of resources and time they don't have, hence more of the burden being on countries integrating the immigrants. Let's also not kid ourselves, it's a trade for their labor in often bad conditions; not something from the grace of our hearts. > But you have to _want_ to integrate, we can't force you. And if you don't want to, please leave. This is imo a question the EU has struggled with for a long time. You'll want people to have their personal freedoms: culture, religion, language, etc. But you also want a cohesive whole where citizens can live and work together peacefully. This is a much more difficult question than "integrate or get out".
    - YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
      I'm an immigrant to the UK. Do you want to tell me what I need to do to "integrate"? Because I have no idea what you may mean by that.

simianparrot 1y ago

It is a prime example for why most of European politics are shifting rightwards. And I'm not saying that's a good thing, overall, it simply is the reason. Far too many who've immigrated here have the GP's viewpoint, and the conflict seems inevitable since our elected representatives have acted paralyzed for decades on this issue. And I personally fear where this is going. Because as much as I want to vet immigrants much more thoroughly and for a time hopefully have net-negative immigration in my country's case, I also know so many immigrants who came here to blend with our culture and are fantastic fellow countrymen. They've enriched our country and culture. When our representatives let it get as bad as it's getting, the ensuing conflict is one that I fear will end up harming indiscriminately, based on ethnicity and simple identifiable markers. All because spineless bureaucrats would rather not put their neck on the line, instead opting to let it all slide into the historically inevitable ugly conflict that seems looming. I am actively looking into non-European destinations to emigrate to, and only ones where I feel I can be a net-positive on their culture and contribute to their economy and society. Because if my worst-case scenario for Europe comes to pass, I don't want to be here to be dragged into it. I don't want to be a contributor in that ugliness.

NeutralForest 1y ago
This sounds very defeatist? I still believe in the European project but it gets hard when you see the current political landscape. That said, I don't think we can only put it on spineless bureaucrats, I don't see many countries having bold policies of integration even at the national level.
- simianparrot 1y ago
  When I'm looking into countries to emigrate to, I don't expect _them_ to take on the burden of integrating _me_, I take that burden of responsibility on myself. Likewise I never understood why we blame ourselves for a lack of effective integration when, particularly in Norway's case, we offer all the services you could want. But you have to _want_ to integrate, we can't force you. And if you don't want to, please leave.
  - NeutralForest 1y ago
    > Likewise I never understood why we blame ourselves for a lack of effective integration Because the country of arrival is usually the stronger economic party. You have the capability of emigrating and integrating because you speak multiple languages, have most likely attained high education and you probably have the means to start a new life some place else. Honestly, good for you but not everyone has those benefits. In the case of someone poorer, it might take a significant amount of resources and time they don't have, hence more of the burden being on countries integrating the immigrants. Let's also not kid ourselves, it's a trade for their labor in often bad conditions; not something from the grace of our hearts. > But you have to _want_ to integrate, we can't force you. And if you don't want to, please leave. This is imo a question the EU has struggled with for a long time. You'll want people to have their personal freedoms: culture, religion, language, etc. But you also want a cohesive whole where citizens can live and work together peacefully. This is a much more difficult question than "integrate or get out".
  - YeGoblynQueenne 1y ago
    I'm an immigrant to the UK. Do you want to tell me what I need to do to "integrate"? Because I have no idea what you may mean by that.