5 ms·

The system that allows very wealthy to exist is also the reason the US has the highest class mobility among western nations. Also, on a purely pragmatic note,

The system that allows very wealthy to exist is also the reason the US has the highest class mobility among western nations. Also, on a purely pragmatic note, capital is mobile. If you penalize the rich, they just move, and then the new system will stop class mobility.

Der_Einzige 1y ago
The globe can collaborate to make sure capital has nowhere to fly to. Form the USSA and get china onboard and let the USSR come back (they’re still the loyal opposition in today’s Russia) and capital will just fucking take it like they deserve to. What, you gonna go to the moon now?
- decimalenough 1y ago
  > The globe can collaborate to make sure capital has nowhere to fly to <meme>hahahaha no</meme> There are countless places that are more than happy to accept capital with few questions asked. Including, funnily enough, the US itself. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/america-becoming-largest-tax-haven-under-trump-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2025-04 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/america-becomin...
- nemo44x 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Der_Einzige 1y ago
    You think I’d be caught dead using a standing desk? That’s the real insult.
    - nemo44x 1y ago
      Ok that’s fair.
jkestner 1y ago
the US has the highest class mobility among western nations Source? The rankings I see have the US behind most of Europe.
- monero-xmr 1y ago
  The average European is poorer than the average person from Mississippi, the US’ poorest state. It isn’t even comparable
  - defrost 1y ago
    Indeed. The nation V. nation median ranking of class mobility is hardly the Nation V. {many nations} average of wealth.
  - danans 1y ago
    > The average European is poorer than the average person from Mississippi, the US’ poorest state Mississippi has a GDP per capita of $53k. 11% of Mississippi's population has no health insurance. Mississippi is one of the highest inequality states in the US. Its median income is $30k. It's Gini Index is 49%. It has poor physical and social infrastructure by advanced country standards. Spain has a GDP per capita of $35k. Its median income is $20k. Everyone in Spain is covered with modern healthcare. Spain has a nationwide high speed rail network. A lot of its infrastructure is top-notch compared to Mississippi and even wealthy parts of the US. This is despite Spain having some of the highest inequality in Europe, and undoubtedly a host of other problems, including decreasing affordability for average people. Yet it's inequality is far lower than Mississippi, with a 31% Gini Index. So perhaps GDP per capita doesn't tell the full story. Also, I'm being fair by comparing Mississippi to one of the poorer countries in Europe, not one of the middle or wealthier countries.
    - monero-xmr 1y ago
      I know several Spaniards who emigrated to the US, including my sister-in-law. The situation you describe is… one of statistics and not reality
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ambicapter 1y ago
The US used to have to class mobility. The completely disproportionate wealth of the current crop of billionaires is evidence instead that that mobility has disappeared, and that the accrual of wealth by the already wealthy is the dominant class "mobility" pattern today.
bobsomers 1y ago
> If you penalize the rich, they just move, and then the new system will stop class mobility. This is a myth created by the rich so that you won't tax them.
- dismalaf 1y ago
  It's pretty observable and part of the reason many microstates are extremely wealthy. Also keep in mind the US is a winner here. The UK loses the most millionaires and it's had an observable impact on their economy.
  - jibal 1y ago
    No, Bob is right and you are wrong.
  - youngtaff 1y ago
    Nah… UK’s economy is broken due to the fact we’ve never recovered from the financial crisis It’s also due to the lack of investment in heathcare, education and other public services over the last 14yrs Britain still has very many extremely rich people - London has more billionaires than NY - Serious Money by Caroline Knowles is an interesting exploration of the subject
  - cycomanic 1y ago
    Just one more follow up, the US is 27th on social mobility, behind most EU countries, Australia, New Zealand and most other countries which are consider "western" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
greesil 1y ago
Cite your sources. That may have been true 30 years ago. What is the incremental value of having a rich person around? Increased yacht sales?
cycomanic 1y ago
I don't know how you came up with that statement. It certainly does not reflect reality unless you don't count Sweden, Germany, Canada as part of the western world. >Individual studies have estimated absolute mobility rates for recent cohorts of roughly 50% in the US (Chetty et al. 2017), 53% in Canada (Ostrovsky 2017), 70% in Germany (Bönke, Harnack, and Luthen 2019; Stockhausen 2018), and 77% in Sweden (Liss, Korpi, and Wennberg 2019). From https://www.ifau.se/globalassets/pdf/se/2020/wp-2020-11-trends-in-absolute-income-mobility-in-north-america-and-europe.pdf https://www.ifau.se/globalassets/pdf/se/2020/wp-2020-11-tren...
- dismalaf 1y ago
  > It certainly does not reflect reality unless you don't count Sweden, Germany, Canada as part of the western world. Look at this chart: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=CA-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... Look at the divergence from the US. Canada's GDP per capita is barely above 2013 levels (~4%), meanwhile the US' is 60% higher. Wages in Canada have been stagnant, there is NO social mobility at all, it's completely fucked. Where I came up with this statement? Actually knowing things about economics and following the CURRENT numbers. Not a 2017 study (which probably took a couple years and using data from 2015 or earlier) which is completely worthless in 2025.

Der_Einzige 1y ago

The globe can collaborate to make sure capital has nowhere to fly to. Form the USSA and get china onboard and let the USSR come back (they’re still the loyal opposition in today’s Russia) and capital will just fucking take it like they deserve to. What, you gonna go to the moon now?

decimalenough 1y ago
> The globe can collaborate to make sure capital has nowhere to fly to <meme>hahahaha no</meme> There are countless places that are more than happy to accept capital with few questions asked. Including, funnily enough, the US itself. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/america-becoming-largest-tax-haven-under-trump-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2025-04 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/america-becomin...
nemo44x 1y ago
[flagged]
- Der_Einzige 1y ago
  You think I’d be caught dead using a standing desk? That’s the real insult.
  - nemo44x 1y ago
    Ok that’s fair.

jkestner 1y ago

the US has the highest class mobility among western nations Source? The rankings I see have the US behind most of Europe.

monero-xmr 1y ago
The average European is poorer than the average person from Mississippi, the US’ poorest state. It isn’t even comparable
- defrost 1y ago
  Indeed. The nation V. nation median ranking of class mobility is hardly the Nation V. {many nations} average of wealth.
- danans 1y ago
  > The average European is poorer than the average person from Mississippi, the US’ poorest state Mississippi has a GDP per capita of $53k. 11% of Mississippi's population has no health insurance. Mississippi is one of the highest inequality states in the US. Its median income is $30k. It's Gini Index is 49%. It has poor physical and social infrastructure by advanced country standards. Spain has a GDP per capita of $35k. Its median income is $20k. Everyone in Spain is covered with modern healthcare. Spain has a nationwide high speed rail network. A lot of its infrastructure is top-notch compared to Mississippi and even wealthy parts of the US. This is despite Spain having some of the highest inequality in Europe, and undoubtedly a host of other problems, including decreasing affordability for average people. Yet it's inequality is far lower than Mississippi, with a 31% Gini Index. So perhaps GDP per capita doesn't tell the full story. Also, I'm being fair by comparing Mississippi to one of the poorer countries in Europe, not one of the middle or wealthier countries.
  - monero-xmr 1y ago
    I know several Spaniards who emigrated to the US, including my sister-in-law. The situation you describe is… one of statistics and not reality

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ambicapter 1y ago

The US used to have to class mobility. The completely disproportionate wealth of the current crop of billionaires is evidence instead that that mobility has disappeared, and that the accrual of wealth by the already wealthy is the dominant class "mobility" pattern today.

bobsomers 1y ago

> If you penalize the rich, they just move, and then the new system will stop class mobility. This is a myth created by the rich so that you won't tax them.

dismalaf 1y ago
It's pretty observable and part of the reason many microstates are extremely wealthy. Also keep in mind the US is a winner here. The UK loses the most millionaires and it's had an observable impact on their economy.
- jibal 1y ago
  No, Bob is right and you are wrong.
- youngtaff 1y ago
  Nah… UK’s economy is broken due to the fact we’ve never recovered from the financial crisis It’s also due to the lack of investment in heathcare, education and other public services over the last 14yrs Britain still has very many extremely rich people - London has more billionaires than NY - Serious Money by Caroline Knowles is an interesting exploration of the subject
- cycomanic 1y ago
  Just one more follow up, the US is 27th on social mobility, behind most EU countries, Australia, New Zealand and most other countries which are consider "western" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

greesil 1y ago

Cite your sources. That may have been true 30 years ago. What is the incremental value of having a rich person around? Increased yacht sales?

cycomanic 1y ago

I don't know how you came up with that statement. It certainly does not reflect reality unless you don't count Sweden, Germany, Canada as part of the western world. >Individual studies have estimated absolute mobility rates for recent cohorts of roughly 50% in the US (Chetty et al. 2017), 53% in Canada (Ostrovsky 2017), 70% in Germany (Bönke, Harnack, and Luthen 2019; Stockhausen 2018), and 77% in Sweden (Liss, Korpi, and Wennberg 2019). From https://www.ifau.se/globalassets/pdf/se/2020/wp-2020-11-trends-in-absolute-income-mobility-in-north-america-and-europe.pdf https://www.ifau.se/globalassets/pdf/se/2020/wp-2020-11-tren...

dismalaf 1y ago
> It certainly does not reflect reality unless you don't count Sweden, Germany, Canada as part of the western world. Look at this chart: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=CA-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... Look at the divergence from the US. Canada's GDP per capita is barely above 2013 levels (~4%), meanwhile the US' is 60% higher. Wages in Canada have been stagnant, there is NO social mobility at all, it's completely fucked. Where I came up with this statement? Actually knowing things about economics and following the CURRENT numbers. Not a 2017 study (which probably took a couple years and using data from 2015 or earlier) which is completely worthless in 2025.