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I think there's something deeply fascinating about socialism, specifically in its persistence of support despite its horrendous, immoral, and corrupt outcomes.

I think there's something deeply fascinating about socialism, specifically in its persistence of support despite its horrendous, immoral, and corrupt outcomes. I ponder if it's because, at a fundamental level, humans actually prefer shitness. Like it's anxiety-removing. That having a moment of "triumph of the people", and enjoying the ease of delusionally believing in some leader who says he's going to help us, followed by decades of stagnation (that was completely option but only occasionally meaningfully reversed, e.g. Argentina recently), is actually preferred by people, because above all else, they can handle having less resources, but they cannot stomach the pain of responsibility. Hence why society actually tends to proceed due to powerful and often disliked unelected leaders, e.g. business tycoons, who can push things ahead despite this tendency.

wredcoll 1y ago
> Hence why society actually tends to proceed due to powerful and often disliked unelected leaders, e.g. business tycoons, who can push things ahead despite this tendency. You had me up until this paragraph. Are you trying to write ayn rand fan fiction? Also, keep in mind that when americans say "socialism" they mean "government funded infrastructure projects", it sounds like you weren't aware of this.
- jalapenos 1y ago
  Would say a Bernie Sanders style "free university, free healthcare" program be considered an infrastructure project in the US? And yes, society only moves forward due to a small number of leaders. In the past this has been more focused on state leaders and conquest, but in the modern day more so industrialists and technologists. It's not controversial that the vast majority of people just want to be provided a comfortable lot in life by others.
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    Yes, free university and free healthcare are infrastructure. We already have free highschools after all. What's the moral difference between the government building a road that I get to drive on "for free" and building a hospital I get to go to "for free"? > It's not controversial that the vast majority of people just want to be provided a comfortable lot in life by others. It's not controversial in the same way that saying the earth is flat isn't controversial, it's just wrong. Society "moves forward" because every day that passes there are literally billions of humans working to build/harvest/grow/research/construct/etc different things. Nobody actually believes e.g. elon musk is out there putting rocketships together, right? President kennedy said "lets go to the moon" then he went back to the white house to attend state dinners and sleep with whoever came near. Ten thousand nasa employees went to work every day and actually built rocketships. (The generic argument here is something like "well elon musk gave them money to build rocketships" except then you have to ask where musk got the money to give to other people in the first place and the argument rapidly breaks down)
    - xorcist 1y ago
      Yet free military, completely socialized and completely state funded, is completely unproblematic. It's even in such high organizational regard that it is usually considered a merit to have made a career there, even in the private sector. That should teach us that we can't look at soeciety from some sort of logical principles. It bears all the markings of sociologically created in-groups, or as the kids would put it, "identity politics". It doesn't have to make sense.
  - 6510 1y ago
    > society only moves forward due to a small number of leaders LOL edit: In English it some how makes sense to use a word like "progress" without defining whereto. It isn't very sophisticated.
wkat4242 1y ago
Umm socialism works pretty great in most of Europe where it's a much nicer place to live than the US. All the talk of immorality and corruption is justified when aimed at Soviet style communism. But that's not the only way. When a balance is sought however it works really great. Much better than the unlimited capitalism as in the US. My boss recently asked me if I wouldn't move to the US lol. I wouldn't think about it. What I care about in life is not having the ability to make unlimited amounts of money but having safety, both on the street and in terms of a social and healthcare safety net. We have all this. We can also call in sick when we're actually sick (no limit to 'sick days'). Can't be fired at will, we get a month of holidays per years plus extras, and our cities are a nicer place to live in with fewer cars and better transport. This kind of left wing doesn't even exist in the US (even Bernie is more right wing than us). So I can imagine Americans thinking that the only socialism is the way the USSR did things. I don't really understand how people think the system works so great when so many Americans struggle to pay rent, healthcare bills, student loans etc. I don't pay out of pocket for healthcare at all here. I just gave a government card that allows me treatment when I need it.
- jalapenos 1y ago
  Out of interest, what do you believe your future looks like? Also do you own anything?
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    My future? More like this. And green and healthy. The city has become much greener over the last years. Socialist places tend to value the environment more. And yes of course I own things. I don't own a car because I don't want one, I hate driving. And I don't have to because public transport is so great and cheap (22€ per month for an unlimited pass). That won't even buy half a tank of fuel. I don't own a flat but I could, I'm looking for the right one. I'm just fussy. And I own all my stuff, I hate renting or leasing stuff. In fact the dogma "You will own nothing and you will be happy" comes from the WEF which is basically all the big capitalist billionaires thrown in one room. It's funny how Americans think socialism is such a hellscape. And then come to Spain and love it. Spain is very socialist even by European standards. Like I said: socialism, at least as we know it here isn't really communism. It's much more of a balance.
quantified 1y ago
People don't prefer shitness. Why do you think so? "Democratic Socialists" were hollow twistings of word. Just like "Christian" is for Maga, all hail Jesus and no charity or grace. Ask the Nordics about socialism.
AngryData 1y ago
I would be interested in hearing what you think socialism means in practice or policy, because your description of the result perfectly matches the capitalist economy we are living in right now.
- jalapenos 1y ago
  I think the problem with you premise is calling what you're living in a capitalist economy. You live in a mixed economy. I recommend you read the Communist Manifesto and check which items on its planned list could be reasonably claimed as actually having been done in the society you live in. My conceptualisation of socialism is the property rights concept as presented by actual monkeys. He who possesses possesses, and he who does not is to dispossess the latter of such if his force allows. In the modern era, this is: he who can, by sufficient narcissism and IQ, explain why other's fruits of their labor and risk taking is actually "theft", such that he can indirectly participate in a competing form of (true) theft himself.
  - AngryData 1y ago
    I have read it, im not sure what your point is? The workers in the US do not own the means of production, labor rights are exceedingly poor compared to any peer countries, and it is even illegal to strike in solidarity with other workers unions. There are also many restrictions on how unions can be formed and utilized, some industries have to get government approval for a strike, our legal system is heavily biased towards capital, and our political system is largely based on who can raise the most capital for elections or bribe the most politicians for favors. Im completely missing where average workers have significant control in either economic or political decisions that would make it socialist or communist or anything other than capitalist controlled.
    - jalapenos 1y ago
      I'm interested in the following answer from you: why is it that there is then such high economic immigration into the US to the extent that people will take trips through the Darien gap at great personal risk and expense, often from Latin American socialist paradises like Venezuela, to illegally enter the US to subject themselves to this labor horror you describe? Is it possible what you parrot is an ideology taught to you by twisted university dwelling goblins for their own benefit, to taking advantage of an us/them anger that actually has ultimately stemmed from childhood issues, rather than something you've reasoned yourself from first principles?

wredcoll 1y ago

> Hence why society actually tends to proceed due to powerful and often disliked unelected leaders, e.g. business tycoons, who can push things ahead despite this tendency. You had me up until this paragraph. Are you trying to write ayn rand fan fiction? Also, keep in mind that when americans say "socialism" they mean "government funded infrastructure projects", it sounds like you weren't aware of this.

jalapenos 1y ago
Would say a Bernie Sanders style "free university, free healthcare" program be considered an infrastructure project in the US? And yes, society only moves forward due to a small number of leaders. In the past this has been more focused on state leaders and conquest, but in the modern day more so industrialists and technologists. It's not controversial that the vast majority of people just want to be provided a comfortable lot in life by others.
- wredcoll 1y ago
  Yes, free university and free healthcare are infrastructure. We already have free highschools after all. What's the moral difference between the government building a road that I get to drive on "for free" and building a hospital I get to go to "for free"? > It's not controversial that the vast majority of people just want to be provided a comfortable lot in life by others. It's not controversial in the same way that saying the earth is flat isn't controversial, it's just wrong. Society "moves forward" because every day that passes there are literally billions of humans working to build/harvest/grow/research/construct/etc different things. Nobody actually believes e.g. elon musk is out there putting rocketships together, right? President kennedy said "lets go to the moon" then he went back to the white house to attend state dinners and sleep with whoever came near. Ten thousand nasa employees went to work every day and actually built rocketships. (The generic argument here is something like "well elon musk gave them money to build rocketships" except then you have to ask where musk got the money to give to other people in the first place and the argument rapidly breaks down)
  - xorcist 1y ago
    Yet free military, completely socialized and completely state funded, is completely unproblematic. It's even in such high organizational regard that it is usually considered a merit to have made a career there, even in the private sector. That should teach us that we can't look at soeciety from some sort of logical principles. It bears all the markings of sociologically created in-groups, or as the kids would put it, "identity politics". It doesn't have to make sense.
- 6510 1y ago
  > society only moves forward due to a small number of leaders LOL edit: In English it some how makes sense to use a word like "progress" without defining whereto. It isn't very sophisticated.

wkat4242 1y ago

Umm socialism works pretty great in most of Europe where it's a much nicer place to live than the US. All the talk of immorality and corruption is justified when aimed at Soviet style communism. But that's not the only way. When a balance is sought however it works really great. Much better than the unlimited capitalism as in the US. My boss recently asked me if I wouldn't move to the US lol. I wouldn't think about it. What I care about in life is not having the ability to make unlimited amounts of money but having safety, both on the street and in terms of a social and healthcare safety net. We have all this. We can also call in sick when we're actually sick (no limit to 'sick days'). Can't be fired at will, we get a month of holidays per years plus extras, and our cities are a nicer place to live in with fewer cars and better transport. This kind of left wing doesn't even exist in the US (even Bernie is more right wing than us). So I can imagine Americans thinking that the only socialism is the way the USSR did things. I don't really understand how people think the system works so great when so many Americans struggle to pay rent, healthcare bills, student loans etc. I don't pay out of pocket for healthcare at all here. I just gave a government card that allows me treatment when I need it.

jalapenos 1y ago
Out of interest, what do you believe your future looks like? Also do you own anything?
- wkat4242 1y ago
  My future? More like this. And green and healthy. The city has become much greener over the last years. Socialist places tend to value the environment more. And yes of course I own things. I don't own a car because I don't want one, I hate driving. And I don't have to because public transport is so great and cheap (22€ per month for an unlimited pass). That won't even buy half a tank of fuel. I don't own a flat but I could, I'm looking for the right one. I'm just fussy. And I own all my stuff, I hate renting or leasing stuff. In fact the dogma "You will own nothing and you will be happy" comes from the WEF which is basically all the big capitalist billionaires thrown in one room. It's funny how Americans think socialism is such a hellscape. And then come to Spain and love it. Spain is very socialist even by European standards. Like I said: socialism, at least as we know it here isn't really communism. It's much more of a balance.

quantified 1y ago

People don't prefer shitness. Why do you think so? "Democratic Socialists" were hollow twistings of word. Just like "Christian" is for Maga, all hail Jesus and no charity or grace. Ask the Nordics about socialism.

AngryData 1y ago

I would be interested in hearing what you think socialism means in practice or policy, because your description of the result perfectly matches the capitalist economy we are living in right now.

jalapenos 1y ago
I think the problem with you premise is calling what you're living in a capitalist economy. You live in a mixed economy. I recommend you read the Communist Manifesto and check which items on its planned list could be reasonably claimed as actually having been done in the society you live in. My conceptualisation of socialism is the property rights concept as presented by actual monkeys. He who possesses possesses, and he who does not is to dispossess the latter of such if his force allows. In the modern era, this is: he who can, by sufficient narcissism and IQ, explain why other's fruits of their labor and risk taking is actually "theft", such that he can indirectly participate in a competing form of (true) theft himself.
- AngryData 1y ago
  I have read it, im not sure what your point is? The workers in the US do not own the means of production, labor rights are exceedingly poor compared to any peer countries, and it is even illegal to strike in solidarity with other workers unions. There are also many restrictions on how unions can be formed and utilized, some industries have to get government approval for a strike, our legal system is heavily biased towards capital, and our political system is largely based on who can raise the most capital for elections or bribe the most politicians for favors. Im completely missing where average workers have significant control in either economic or political decisions that would make it socialist or communist or anything other than capitalist controlled.
  - jalapenos 1y ago
    I'm interested in the following answer from you: why is it that there is then such high economic immigration into the US to the extent that people will take trips through the Darien gap at great personal risk and expense, often from Latin American socialist paradises like Venezuela, to illegally enter the US to subject themselves to this labor horror you describe? Is it possible what you parrot is an ideology taught to you by twisted university dwelling goblins for their own benefit, to taking advantage of an us/them anger that actually has ultimately stemmed from childhood issues, rather than something you've reasoned yourself from first principles?