2 ms·

Look, I get where you're coming from. It's not unreasonable. I've said this before. But there are also reasons why things are the way they are, and that is als

by arp242 1y ago

Look, I get where you're coming from. It's not unreasonable. I've said this before. But there are also reasons why things are the way they are, and that is also not unreasonable. And at the end of the day: Linus is the boss. It really does come down to that. He has dozens of other subsystem maintainers to deal with and this is the process that works for him. Similar stuff applies to Debian. Personally, I deeply dislike Debian's inflexible and outmoded policy and lack of pragmatism. But you know, the policy is the policy, and at some point you just need to accept that and work with it the best you can. It's okay to make all the arguments you've made. It's okay to make them forcefully (within some limits of reason). It's not okay to keep repeating them again and again until everyone gets tired of it and seemingly just completely fail to listen to what people are sating. This is where you are being unreasonable. I mean, you *can* do that, I guess, but look at where things are now. No one is happy with this – certainly not you. And it's really not a surprise, I already said this in November last year: "I wouldn't be surprised to see bcachefs removed from the kernel at some point".[1] To be clear: I didn't want that to happen – I think you've done great work with bcachefs and I really want it to succeed every which way. But everyone could see this coming from miles. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42225345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42225345

koverstreet 1y ago
You have to consider the bigger picture. XFS has burned through maintainers, citing "upstream burnout". It's not just bcachefs that things are broken for. And it was burning me out, too. We need a functioning release process, and we haven't had that; instead I've been getting a ton of drama that's boiled over into the bcachefs community, oftentimes completely drowning out all the calmer, more technical conversations that we want. It's not great. It would have been much better if this could have been worked out. But at this point, cutting ties with the kernel community and shipping as a DKMS module is really the only path forwards. It's not the end of the world. Same with Debian; we haven't had those issues in any other distros, so eventually we'll get a better package maintainer who can work the process or they'll figure out that their Rust policy actually isn't as smart as they think it is as Rust adoption goes up. I'm just going to push for doing things right, and if one route or option fails there's always others.
- simoncion 1y ago
  [flagged]
nextaccountic 1y ago
> But there are also reasons why things are the way they are, and that is also not unreasonable. It is unreasonable if it leads to users losing data. At this point, the only reasonable thing is to either completely remove support for bcachefs or give timely fixes for critical bugs, there's no middle position that won't willfully lead to users losing their data. This used to be the default for distributions like Debian some time ago. You only supported foundational software if you were willing to also distribute critical fixes in a timely manner. If not, why bother? For all other issues, I guess we can accept that things are the way they are.
- abenga 1y ago
  > It is unreasonable if it leads to users losing data. Changing the kernel development process to allow adding new features willy-nilly late in the RC cycle will lead to much worse things than a few people using an experimental file system losing their data in the long term. The process exists for a reason, and the kernel is a massive project that includes more than just one file system, no matter how special its developers and users believe it is.
  - koverstreet 1y ago
    There's no need for kernel development process to change. New features go in during RCs all the time, it's always just a risk vs. reward calculation, and I'm more conservative with what I send outside the merge window that a lot of subsystems. This blowup was entirely unnecessary.
- rwmj 1y ago
  Not too familiar with the kernel process for this, but for Linux distros there are ways to respond to critical issues including data corruption and data loss. It's just that you have to follow their processes to do this, such as producing a minimal patch that fixes the problem which is backported into the older code base (and there's a reason for that too: end users don't want churn on their installed systems, they want an install to be stable and predictable). Since distros are how you ultimately get your code into users' hands, it's really their way or the highway. Telling the distros they are wrong isn't going to go well.

by arp242 1y ago

koverstreet 1y ago

You have to consider the bigger picture. XFS has burned through maintainers, citing "upstream burnout". It's not just bcachefs that things are broken for. And it was burning me out, too. We need a functioning release process, and we haven't had that; instead I've been getting a ton of drama that's boiled over into the bcachefs community, oftentimes completely drowning out all the calmer, more technical conversations that we want. It's not great. It would have been much better if this could have been worked out. But at this point, cutting ties with the kernel community and shipping as a DKMS module is really the only path forwards. It's not the end of the world. Same with Debian; we haven't had those issues in any other distros, so eventually we'll get a better package maintainer who can work the process or they'll figure out that their Rust policy actually isn't as smart as they think it is as Rust adoption goes up. I'm just going to push for doing things right, and if one route or option fails there's always others.

simoncion 1y ago
[flagged]

nextaccountic 1y ago

> But there are also reasons why things are the way they are, and that is also not unreasonable. It is unreasonable if it leads to users losing data. At this point, the only reasonable thing is to either completely remove support for bcachefs or give timely fixes for critical bugs, there's no middle position that won't willfully lead to users losing their data. This used to be the default for distributions like Debian some time ago. You only supported foundational software if you were willing to also distribute critical fixes in a timely manner. If not, why bother? For all other issues, I guess we can accept that things are the way they are.

abenga 1y ago
> It is unreasonable if it leads to users losing data. Changing the kernel development process to allow adding new features willy-nilly late in the RC cycle will lead to much worse things than a few people using an experimental file system losing their data in the long term. The process exists for a reason, and the kernel is a massive project that includes more than just one file system, no matter how special its developers and users believe it is.
- koverstreet 1y ago
  There's no need for kernel development process to change. New features go in during RCs all the time, it's always just a risk vs. reward calculation, and I'm more conservative with what I send outside the merge window that a lot of subsystems. This blowup was entirely unnecessary.
rwmj 1y ago
Not too familiar with the kernel process for this, but for Linux distros there are ways to respond to critical issues including data corruption and data loss. It's just that you have to follow their processes to do this, such as producing a minimal patch that fixes the problem which is backported into the older code base (and there's a reason for that too: end users don't want churn on their installed systems, they want an install to be stable and predictable). Since distros are how you ultimately get your code into users' hands, it's really their way or the highway. Telling the distros they are wrong isn't going to go well.