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I've been trying to convince my brother-in-law (who works at a convenience store) to consider trade school for years now, in no small part because I think a lot

I've been trying to convince my brother-in-law (who works at a convenience store) to consider trade school for years now, in no small part because I think a lot of the jobs you go to trade school for are safe from automation. For reasons kind of unclear to me, it seems like trade schools have been kind of stigmatized, as somehow "lesser" than university. I don't completely understand why that is; the world needs welders and AC technicians and Practical Nurses much more than we need more software engineers working at a Silicon Valley startup.

squigz 1y ago
> the world needs welders and AC technicians and Practical Nurses much more than we need more software engineers working at a Silicon Valley startup. The world needs software engineers too. Silicon Valley isn't the world. Not to mention, you know... it's not just programmers that come out of universities. Anyway, trades are "looked down" on like that because they're a lot of very hard, very physical work. I would certainly encourage my children to go to university if it's going to lead to a much more comfortable life.
- tombert 1y ago
  For the record, I have a bachelors and a masters in computer science and while I didn't finish I did attend a PhD program. I'm not trying to dog on universities as a concept. That said, I think universities aren't a good fit for a lot of people. A lot of people (and I include my brother-in-law in this group) would not be happy with a desk job, and while I think he's pretty smart I don't know that he would do well having to attend four years of a university. I think trade schools are excellent for these kinds of people. I don't have children, but I would like to think that if I did I would try and help them get a career they would be happy with, and "comfortable" doesn't necessarily imply that. I prefer to have a desk job, I like writing software, it's why I spend too much time on HN, but I think a lot of people would benefit from a trade school, and I don't think they should be stigmatized.
  - antonymoose 1y ago
    I would second this largely, I’m the son of a plumber / handyman / GC. I’ve spent my childhood on service calls and job sites since the age of 5, spent my teenage summers schlepping tools and driving lightning rods, you name it, I’ve done it. I wouldn’t trade my near 20 year software career for the trades, I don’t think. However, the biggest thing I think the HN crowd might appreciate that they have and we lack is an easy path to freedom through self employment - if you want self-employment as a programmer you need the fortune of a novel idea, improvement, or something new in some sense. You might need to also chase the VC dragon. You want to start a plumbing business? Work hard 5-10 years, get out on your own with a van and tools and you have a turn key business idea. Provide good service at a proper rate. End of story.
    - tombert 1y ago
      I mean it's not too hard for software people to start contracting businesses. I've done private contracting in the past between W2 jobs, and I've debated trying to do it full time. All it took was an internet connection and a decent laptop.
      - antonymoose 1y ago
        I’ve tried, it’s far harder to find and succeed in a global marketplace. While I do live in a metro, it’s a small one that cannot sustain an income close to my day job. If you’re a tradesmen you’re never going to compete with Eastern Europe, LATAM, India, or anywhere global.
        tombert 1y ago
        That's true; my private contracting has always been done via connections. I reach out to coworkers from previous jobs and ask if they need any work, and sometimes they do. Cold-calling to get work would definitely be harder because you definitely are competing with much cheaper labor.
    - creer 1y ago
j7ake 1y ago
University is a path to a more global and flexible career for positions that don’t even exist yet. There is more mobility and more flexibility to future jobs with a university degree like mathematics than with trade.
- Gud 1y ago
  I used to install high voltage switchgear worldwide for a living, I didn’t go to any university. Now I commission the same equipment. If you are a skilled tradesman, your skills are sought after globally.
  - j7ake 1y ago
    Good luck trying to get a work visa to places like Europe or USA if you have a trades background
    - throwaway290 1y ago
      You can't get a work visa to USA or Europe anyway without someone hiring you first no?
    - Gud 1y ago
      Well I’m European so. Typically you are sponsored by your employer.
righthand 1y ago
It’s because we built a society that prides clever “get rich quick” ideas over pride in having a job. We have lots of factory and manufacturing jobs in Usa but no one wants to work the long hours for pretty decent pay when they can vibe code for marketing companies and not work really at all.

squigz 1y ago

> the world needs welders and AC technicians and Practical Nurses much more than we need more software engineers working at a Silicon Valley startup. The world needs software engineers too. Silicon Valley isn't the world. Not to mention, you know... it's not just programmers that come out of universities. Anyway, trades are "looked down" on like that because they're a lot of very hard, very physical work. I would certainly encourage my children to go to university if it's going to lead to a much more comfortable life.

tombert 1y ago
For the record, I have a bachelors and a masters in computer science and while I didn't finish I did attend a PhD program. I'm not trying to dog on universities as a concept. That said, I think universities aren't a good fit for a lot of people. A lot of people (and I include my brother-in-law in this group) would not be happy with a desk job, and while I think he's pretty smart I don't know that he would do well having to attend four years of a university. I think trade schools are excellent for these kinds of people. I don't have children, but I would like to think that if I did I would try and help them get a career they would be happy with, and "comfortable" doesn't necessarily imply that. I prefer to have a desk job, I like writing software, it's why I spend too much time on HN, but I think a lot of people would benefit from a trade school, and I don't think they should be stigmatized.
- antonymoose 1y ago
  I would second this largely, I’m the son of a plumber / handyman / GC. I’ve spent my childhood on service calls and job sites since the age of 5, spent my teenage summers schlepping tools and driving lightning rods, you name it, I’ve done it. I wouldn’t trade my near 20 year software career for the trades, I don’t think. However, the biggest thing I think the HN crowd might appreciate that they have and we lack is an easy path to freedom through self employment - if you want self-employment as a programmer you need the fortune of a novel idea, improvement, or something new in some sense. You might need to also chase the VC dragon. You want to start a plumbing business? Work hard 5-10 years, get out on your own with a van and tools and you have a turn key business idea. Provide good service at a proper rate. End of story.
  - tombert 1y ago
    I mean it's not too hard for software people to start contracting businesses. I've done private contracting in the past between W2 jobs, and I've debated trying to do it full time. All it took was an internet connection and a decent laptop.
    - antonymoose 1y ago
      I’ve tried, it’s far harder to find and succeed in a global marketplace. While I do live in a metro, it’s a small one that cannot sustain an income close to my day job. If you’re a tradesmen you’re never going to compete with Eastern Europe, LATAM, India, or anywhere global.
      - tombert 1y ago
        That's true; my private contracting has always been done via connections. I reach out to coworkers from previous jobs and ask if they need any work, and sometimes they do. Cold-calling to get work would definitely be harder because you definitely are competing with much cheaper labor.
  - creer 1y ago

j7ake 1y ago

University is a path to a more global and flexible career for positions that don’t even exist yet. There is more mobility and more flexibility to future jobs with a university degree like mathematics than with trade.

Gud 1y ago
I used to install high voltage switchgear worldwide for a living, I didn’t go to any university. Now I commission the same equipment. If you are a skilled tradesman, your skills are sought after globally.
- j7ake 1y ago
  Good luck trying to get a work visa to places like Europe or USA if you have a trades background
  - throwaway290 1y ago
    You can't get a work visa to USA or Europe anyway without someone hiring you first no?
  - Gud 1y ago
    Well I’m European so. Typically you are sponsored by your employer.

righthand 1y ago

It’s because we built a society that prides clever “get rich quick” ideas over pride in having a job. We have lots of factory and manufacturing jobs in Usa but no one wants to work the long hours for pretty decent pay when they can vibe code for marketing companies and not work really at all.