4 ms·

Would it be considered haram even if you don't actually eat it?

by k__ 1y ago

Vosporos 1y ago
> He has only forbidden you ˹to eat˺ carrion, blood, swine[1], and what is slaughtered in the name of any other than Allah. But if someone is compelled by necessity—neither driven by desire nor exceeding immediate need—they will not be sinful. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [1]: Eating pork is forbidden in the Old Testament in Leviticus 11:7-8 and Deuteronomy 14:8. https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=173 https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=173
- EA-3167 1y ago
  On the Jewish side of things there's a principle called "Pikuach Nefesh" which essentially means that outside of extremes like murder, rape, and other violent crimes against others, you should do anything possible to preserve life. If you're an orthodox Jewish doctor on the Sabbath, and someone needs your skills to live, you're required to break the Sabbath and help.
  - fsckboy 1y ago
    >if you're an orthodox Jewish doctor on the Sabbath, and someone needs your skills to live, you're required to break the Sabbath are you therefore required to answer the phone, because who else would be calling on shabat?
    - adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
      no, but if you have a pager, you would.
    - adriand 1y ago
      A friend of mine lives in Montreal where there is a large orthodox Jewish population and he told me he was out walking one day and a woman started calling to him from the door of her house and gesturing for him to come over. She explained to him that she needed his help: there was an urgent situation and she needed to make a phone call, but because it was the Sabbath, she was not able to. He made the call for her and went on his way. I always thought these workarounds were odd - does God have no objection to using proxies to get around the rules? Then again, my friend is not Jewish, so perhaps he can freely break the Sabbath because he’s outside the scope of the rule? Or is damned anyway?
      - edgineer 1y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy
      - MrApathy 1y ago
        Generalizing a lot here, but Jews and Christians interpret ambiguities within scripture very differently. Most Christians will try to maintain the spirit of the rule. Jews often view ambiguities as loopholes intentionally left by God. If the loophole wasn't mean to be there, God would have written it differently. For a great example see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv . Look carefully and you'll see these in Jewish areas of NYC like Williamsburg.
      - throwaway743 1y ago
        Had an orthodox roommate in college who once asked me to light his bowl for him... Another time he asked my friend to tear him some toilet paper
      - cyberax 1y ago
        > I always thought these workarounds were odd - does God have no objection to using proxies to get around the rules? Apparently, the consensus is that the God does not just approve of working around the rules, but actively _expects_ it. Otherwise the rules wouldn't have these loopholes, would they?
        stavros 1y ago
        My god, the mental gymnastics we do so we can continue to pretend comforting things are true...
        aziaziazi 1y ago
        That sounds profoundly ignorant of human’s customs and cultural usages. Using "we" shows the orator includes himself in the group but the surprised tone "my god" has a bitter taste of despise. I’m not Jewish but it’s easy to see similar mental gymnastics on myself or around. Remarking it on others before myself would show a great lack of introspection. When someone is surprised, the wise thinking is to question his own beliefs before the object of his discovery.
  - whycome 1y ago
    Why not all vegan then
    - aerostable_slug 1y ago
      Because the exception is for saving identifiable, individual human lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
    - s5300 1y ago
      [dead]
  - userbinator 1y ago
    My brain autocorrected that to Pikachu and I had a moment of perplexment.
  - discordance 1y ago
    How strongly is this principal followed? The current Israeli administration is governed by hard line Jewish leaders and don’t seem to abide by pikachu at all.
Cyph0n 1y ago
Good question. No, because there is a fiqh (jurisprudence) rule that roughly states “necessities permit the prohibited”, which can be used to override the impurity of pigs. In addition, some scholars (a minority) argue that perhaps one reason behind pork consumption being forbidden is due to its utility in human transplantation (thereby making it “sacred”).
- fsckboy 1y ago
  [flagged]
- 0b110907 1y ago
  How recently were the arguments around utility in human transplantation put forward? Are religious scholars the OG biotech founders? Good paper on the history of human/animal transplantation: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246856/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246856/ In the 1920s, Voronoff advocated the transplantation of slices of chimpanzee testis into aged men whose “zest for life” was deteriorating, believing that the hormones produced by the testis would rejuvenate his patients.
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    Oh, this argument was definitely put forth after the fact. But the idea is that the utility of pigs must have been known to God, so perhaps this is a reason behind forbidding its consumption.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Would it be considered haram even if you don't actually eat it?

by k__ 1y ago

Would it be considered haram even if you don't actually eat it?

> He has only forbidden you ˹to eat˺ carrion, blood, swine[1], and what is slaughtered in the name of any other than Allah. But if someone is compelled by necessity—neither driven by desire nor exceeding immediate need—they will not be sinful. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [1]: Eating pork is forbidden in the Old Testament in Leviticus 11:7-8 and Deuteronomy 14:8. https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=173 https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=173

EA-3167 1y ago
On the Jewish side of things there's a principle called "Pikuach Nefesh" which essentially means that outside of extremes like murder, rape, and other violent crimes against others, you should do anything possible to preserve life. If you're an orthodox Jewish doctor on the Sabbath, and someone needs your skills to live, you're required to break the Sabbath and help.
- fsckboy 1y ago
  >if you're an orthodox Jewish doctor on the Sabbath, and someone needs your skills to live, you're required to break the Sabbath are you therefore required to answer the phone, because who else would be calling on shabat?
  - adgjlsfhk1 1y ago
    no, but if you have a pager, you would.
  - adriand 1y ago
    A friend of mine lives in Montreal where there is a large orthodox Jewish population and he told me he was out walking one day and a woman started calling to him from the door of her house and gesturing for him to come over. She explained to him that she needed his help: there was an urgent situation and she needed to make a phone call, but because it was the Sabbath, she was not able to. He made the call for her and went on his way. I always thought these workarounds were odd - does God have no objection to using proxies to get around the rules? Then again, my friend is not Jewish, so perhaps he can freely break the Sabbath because he’s outside the scope of the rule? Or is damned anyway?
    - edgineer 1y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy
    - MrApathy 1y ago
      Generalizing a lot here, but Jews and Christians interpret ambiguities within scripture very differently. Most Christians will try to maintain the spirit of the rule. Jews often view ambiguities as loopholes intentionally left by God. If the loophole wasn't mean to be there, God would have written it differently. For a great example see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv . Look carefully and you'll see these in Jewish areas of NYC like Williamsburg.
    - throwaway743 1y ago
      Had an orthodox roommate in college who once asked me to light his bowl for him... Another time he asked my friend to tear him some toilet paper
    - cyberax 1y ago
      > I always thought these workarounds were odd - does God have no objection to using proxies to get around the rules? Apparently, the consensus is that the God does not just approve of working around the rules, but actively _expects_ it. Otherwise the rules wouldn't have these loopholes, would they?
      - stavros 1y ago
        My god, the mental gymnastics we do so we can continue to pretend comforting things are true...
        aziaziazi 1y ago
        That sounds profoundly ignorant of human’s customs and cultural usages. Using "we" shows the orator includes himself in the group but the surprised tone "my god" has a bitter taste of despise. I’m not Jewish but it’s easy to see similar mental gymnastics on myself or around. Remarking it on others before myself would show a great lack of introspection. When someone is surprised, the wise thinking is to question his own beliefs before the object of his discovery.
- whycome 1y ago
  Why not all vegan then
  - aerostable_slug 1y ago
    Because the exception is for saving identifiable, individual human lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
  - s5300 1y ago
    [dead]
- userbinator 1y ago
  My brain autocorrected that to Pikachu and I had a moment of perplexment.
- discordance 1y ago
  How strongly is this principal followed? The current Israeli administration is governed by hard line Jewish leaders and don’t seem to abide by pikachu at all.

Cyph0n 1y ago

Good question. No, because there is a fiqh (jurisprudence) rule that roughly states “necessities permit the prohibited”, which can be used to override the impurity of pigs. In addition, some scholars (a minority) argue that perhaps one reason behind pork consumption being forbidden is due to its utility in human transplantation (thereby making it “sacred”).

fsckboy 1y ago
[flagged]
0b110907 1y ago
How recently were the arguments around utility in human transplantation put forward? Are religious scholars the OG biotech founders? Good paper on the history of human/animal transplantation: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246856/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246856/ In the 1920s, Voronoff advocated the transplantation of slices of chimpanzee testis into aged men whose “zest for life” was deteriorating, believing that the hormones produced by the testis would rejuvenate his patients.
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  Oh, this argument was definitely put forth after the fact. But the idea is that the utility of pigs must have been known to God, so perhaps this is a reason behind forbidding its consumption.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]